Volume 36: Number 54
Fri, 04 May 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 08:33:44 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
From https://goo.gl/W49XHX
Toras Aba<http://torasaba.blogspot.com>
just put up an interesting post discussing a halachic concern regarding
dancing around a bonfire, due to similarity with ancient practice of
idolators.
See the above URL for more.
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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:10:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 02/05/18 04:33, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From https://goo.gl/W49XHX
>
>
> Toras Aba <http://torasaba.blogspot.com>?just put up an interesting post
> discussing a halachic concern regarding dancing around a bonfire, due to
> similarity with ancient practice of idolators.
>
> See the above URL for more.
And yet your precious Minhag Ashkenaz was to (have a nochri) make a
bonfire and dance before it (or around it) on Simchas Torah.
R Wosner was asked about doing so in camp, stam on a Wednesday, not on
Lag Bo'omer when it is, at least in Meron, Chevron, and a few other
places in Eretz Yisroel, a long-established minhog practiced by tzadikim
and chachomim who were much greater than R Wosner or anyone else you can
cite. I don't believe it occurred to him that someone might apply this
teshuvah to those fires, and it's dishonest to do so.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 12:04:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 08:33:44AM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From https://goo.gl/W49XHX
: Toras Aba<http://torasaba.blogspot.com>
: just put up an interesting post discussing a halachic concern regarding
: dancing around a bonfire, due to similarity with ancient practice of
: idolators.
Most of us have little problem with Israel's Moment of Silence on Yom
haZikaron and Yom haSho'ah, at least not Derekh Emori problems. And we
wear ties. There are limits to invoking Derekh Emori.
To my mind, what's more problematic is ending omer mourning before Lag
baOmer morning. The SA has you wait for haircuts until 34 laOmer (493:2)
and the Rama cites the Maharil and minhag on the 33rd "umarbim bo qetzas
simchah, but explicitly writes, "ve'ein lehistapeir ad La"G be'atzmo
velo miba'erev". With exceptions for cutting before Shabbos rather than
waiting for Sunday and for berisim, lekhavos haMilah. In se'if 3, the
Rama excludes the night of Lag baOmer for people who mourn on the last
days too.
And you need part of the 33rd day too, so that with miqtzas hayom kekulo
you have 33 days. The SA haRav (the only Chassidic code of halakhah I
have access to) agrees in 493:5 -- "aval laylah, afilu kulah, einah
kekhol hayom".
At some point a minhag originated to end the aveilus at tzeis. (And I
know it's at tzeis and not sheqi'ah because my nephew's wedding scheduled
later than the norm, this evening.)
I don't know the origin.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 32nd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Hod: What type of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507 really results in dominating others?
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 12:45:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 02/05/18 12:04, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> To my mind, what's more problematic is ending omer mourning before Lag
> baOmer morning. The SA has you wait for haircuts until 34 laOmer (493:2)
> and the Rama cites the Maharil and minhag on the 33rd "umarbim bo qetzas
> simchah, but explicitly writes, "ve'ein lehistapeir ad La"G be'atzmo
> velo miba'erev". With exceptions for cutting before Shabbos rather than
> waiting for Sunday and for berisim, lekhavos haMilah. In se'if 3, the
> Rama excludes the night of Lag baOmer for people who mourn on the last
> days too.
>
> And you need part of the 33rd day too, so that with miqtzas hayom kekulo
> you have 33 days. The SA haRav (the only Chassidic code of halakhah I
> have access to) agrees in 493:5 -- "aval laylah, afilu kulah, einah
> kekhol hayom".
>
> At some point a minhag originated to end the aveilus at tzeis. (And I
> know it's at tzeis and not sheqi'ah because my nephew's wedding scheduled
> later than the norm, this evening.)
>
> I don't know the origin.
The origin is with the shift in the significance of the day from the end
of mourning for R Akiva's students to the celebration of Rashbi's happy
day, the day of his "wedding", when he revealed the Idra Zuta and
returned to his Maker.
A cessation of mourning, such as the last day of shiva, obviously begins
in the morning. Nor is it an occasion for joy; when one gets up from
shiva one doesn't go dancing and singing. Thus the restrictions are
lifted only after daybreak, and tachanun is said at mincha on the
previous day, just as it is on the other three days whose observance
begins in the morning, viz Pesach Sheni, Erev Rosh Hashana, and Erev Yom
Kippur.
But the celebration of Rashbi is a positively happy occasion, so it
starts immediately at nightfall, and no tachanun is said at the previous
mincha.
The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which is
the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and relies
heavily on the Magen Avraham. (He later expressed regret over his
over-reliance on the MA, which is one reason why he wrote a second
edition, only a few chapters of which are extant.) So it's not
surprising that this is the psak found there, however it is not the psak
that was followed in Chabad, which means in practice he paskened
differently. (Sometimes it means he changed his mind, but sometimes he
never paskened in practice as he wrote in the SA, for the reasons I
mentioned above.)
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 13:53:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 12:45:50PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >I don't know the origin.
:
: The origin is with the shift in the significance of the day from the
: end of mourning for R Akiva's students to the celebration of
: Rashbi's happy day, the day of his "wedding", when he revealed the
: Idra Zuta and returned to his Maker.
That's is the taam behind the post-change practice. It does not explain
how or when the older minhag was changed.
And, the first mention that the Peri Eitz Chaim's "yom simchas Rashbi"
is a day for our simchah is Chamdas Yamim. With the problem that raises.
You also insert your own explanation of "yom simchas Rashbi". It could,
after all, still be his yahrzeit, or as per your own rebbe (RMMS,
in a letter to R' Zevin; unforunately I don't have a mar'eh maqom)
that it was the day R' Aqiva started over with 5 talmidim -- thus,
Rashbi's simchah as one of those 5.
...
: The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which
: is the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and
: relies heavily on the Magen Avraham...
I do not know if celebrations the night of Lag baOmer existed yet even.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 32nd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Hod: What type of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507 really results in dominating others?
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 14:25:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 02/05/18 13:53, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 12:45:50PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >I don't know the origin.
> :
> : The origin is with the shift in the significance of the day from the
> : end of mourning for R Akiva's students to the celebration of
> : Rashbi's happy day, the day of his "wedding", when he revealed the
> : Idra Zuta and returned to his Maker.
>
> That's is the taam behind the post-change practice. It does not explain
> how or when the older minhag was changed.
It follows that the minhag changed when the significance of the day
changed. In other words, the minhogim of the day when R Akiva's
talmidim stopped dying did not change, but on top of them came a whole
new layer of minhogim for the new holiday that occupies the same day on
the calendar.
For a similar example, the significance of 3 Tammuz in Lubavitch changed
dramatically in 5754. The earlier significance of that day and
whatever practices it had did not go away, e.g. those who did not say
tachanun on 3 Tammuz before 5754 still don't say it, while those who did
still do, but the new significance, and the host of practices that came
with it, overwhelmed the earlier significance and observance.
> And, the first mention that the Peri Eitz Chaim's "yom simchas Rashbi"
> is a day for our simchah is Chamdas Yamim. With the problem that raises.
Doesn't the Idra Zuta say that Rashbi asked for his hilula to be
celebrated rather than mourned?
> You also insert your own explanation of "yom simchas Rashbi". It could,
> after all, still be his yahrzeit, or as per your own rebbe (RMMS,
> in a letter to R' Zevin; unforunately I don't have a mar'eh maqom)
> that it was the day R' Aqiva started over with 5 talmidim -- thus,
> Rashbi's simchah as one of those 5.
Whether it's the correct explanation of the Pri Etz Chaim or not, it is
the one held by the people actually doing the celebrating, and thus
fully explains their practices.
> ...
> : The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which
> : is the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and
> : relies heavily on the Magen Avraham...
>
> I do not know if celebrations the night of Lag baOmer existed yet even.
They certainly existed in the next generation, so there's no reason to
suppose they didn't exist in his day.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 18:57:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 02/05/18 14:25, Zev Sero wrote:
>>
>> : The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which
>> : is the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and
>> : relies heavily on the Magen Avraham...
>> I do not know if celebrations the night of Lag baOmer existed yet even.
> They certainly existed in the next generation, so there's no reason to
> suppose they didn't exist in his day.
PS: Indirect evidence that in the AR's day the night of Lag Baomer was
already considered part of the simcha is that in his siddur (as opposed
to his SA) he wrote that tachanun is not said at mincha of erev Lag
Baomer.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 03 May 2018 10:01:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
At 12:04 PM 5/2/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>To my mind, what's more problematic is ending omer mourning before Lag
>baOmer morning. The SA has you wait for haircuts until 34 laOmer (493:2)
>and the Rama cites the Maharil and minhag on the 33rd "umarbim bo qetzas
>simchah, but explicitly writes, "ve'ein lehistapeir ad La"G be'atzmo
>velo miba'erev". With exceptions for cutting before Shabbos rather than
>waiting for Sunday and for berisim, lekhavos haMilah. In se'if 3, the
>Rama excludes the night of Lag baOmer for people who mourn on the last
>days too.
>
>And you need part of the 33rd day too, so that with miqtzas hayom kekulo
>you have 33 days. The SA haRav (the only Chassidic code of halakhah I
>have access to) agrees in 493:5 -- "aval laylah, afilu kulah, einah
>kekhol hayom".
>
>At some point a minhag originated to end the aveilus at tzeis.
Don't the Sefardim hold all of the 33rd day and stop the Minhag of
Aveilus on the 34th day? If so, how can Sefardim go to Meron on the
night of the 33rd?
I would like to know when the minhag originated to end the aveilus at
Tzeis and who started it.
YL
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Message: 9
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:04:34 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] tzedaka priorities
The S"A in O"C 152:1 codifies a prohibition against tearing down a
synagogue before building a new one (one must build the new one first). The
M"B (4) gives the reason for this prohibition as a concern that if one had
not built the new one first, a case of pidyon shvuyim(captive's redemption)
might arise requiring funds to be diverted from the new construction.
1. Why couldn't the chachamim make a takana in that case?
2. Why would the chachamim work around required priorities?
3. Doesn't 152:6 says you would sell a synagogue anyway in a case of pidyon shvuyim?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 12:03:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 03/05/18 10:01, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> Don't the Sefardim hold all of the 33rd day and stop the Minhag of
> Aveilus on the 34th day?? If so,? how can Sefardim go to Meron on the
> night of the 33rd?
The same way they can go during the day. Haircuts and weddings are
still forbidden, but the celebration of Rashbi doesn't involve either of
those things. (There is no issur on music during sefirah; that seems to
be a modern invention, presumably because in modern times we've become
lenient on the prohibition against music at any time, so we need to
impose a restriction during sefirah, whereas earlier generations who
were strict with the general prohibition didn't feel a need to
strengthen it now.)
> I would like to know when the minhag originated to end the aveilus at
> Tzeis and who started it.
As I wrote earlier, it seems associated with the adoption of the
Rashbi's celebration on top of the earlier marking of the end of the
plague among R Akiva's students. Thus it would probably have started in
Tzfas in the late 16th century and spread into Europe in the 18th
century together with the AriZal's kabbalah. (Note that according to the
AriZal, not cutting hair is not connected to avelus, and applies on Lag
Ba`omer as well, except for upsherenishen. But not having weddings is
because of avelus, so if we're celebrating Yom Simchas Rashbi they
should be permitted.)
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 12:03:10PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 03/05/18 10:01, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: >Don't the Sefardim hold all of the 33rd day and stop the Minhag of
: >Aveilus on the 34th day?? If so,? how can Sefardim go to Meron on
: >the night of the 33rd?
:
: The same way they can go during the day. Haircuts and weddings are
: still forbidden, but the celebration of Rashbi doesn't involve
: either of those things...
An upsherin / chalaqah is very much part of the Meron celebrations.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:17:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On 03/05/18 13:13, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 12:03:10PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : On 03/05/18 10:01, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> : >Don't the Sefardim hold all of the 33rd day and stop the Minhag of
> : >Aveilus on the 34th day?? If so,? how can Sefardim go to Meron on
> : >the night of the 33rd?
> : The same way they can go during the day. Haircuts and weddings are
> : still forbidden, but the celebration of Rashbi doesn't involve
> : either of those things...
> An upsherin / chalaqah is very much part of the Meron celebrations.
For children, who are not obligated in aveilus anyway.
But in any case the question was about how Sefardim go at night, and the
answer is the same way they go by day.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 14:56:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign
On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 01:17:41PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: But in any case the question was about how Sefardim go at night, and
: the answer is the same way they go by day.
The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
(? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
Ashk and Seph?
Yes, if the party happened to be during the day, I would have the same
question WRT Sepharadim (only). So how does pointing out that fact help
me any in answering it?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507 submission to truth, and what results?
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Message: 14
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 02:36:11 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag B'Omer
On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> See https://goo.gl/Hc6as9
>
>
> Five Things You Should Know About Lag B'Omer Number 2 is
>
>
> There is no evidence that anyone at all celebrated Lag B'Omer before the
> 17th century. (Please correct me if you have evidence otherwise.)
>
I wonder if the author of this article recites Kabbalat Shabbat and sings
Lecha Dodi on Friday nights. There is no evidence that anyone at all did
that before the 16th century.
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