Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 53

Tue, 01 May 2018

• 1. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Question from the Book of Yechezqeil (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Micha Berger)
• 6. Farfetched Ukimtas (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Lag B'Omer (Professor L. Levine)
• 10. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Marty Bluke)
• 12. Ahava Eternal (Cantor Wolberg)

The question is why specifically here does the Gemara object to farfetched
ukimtas? There are far fetched ukimtas all over shas and yet for some
reason this ukimta was considered so farfetched that it was rejected. What
does this say about far fetched ukimtas elsewhere? Does the Gemara anywhere
else reject a farfetched ukimta like this?

-/////----
One line of approach is that the Gemara had a separate line of tradition as
to what the Halacha was and simply was	reconciling The sources with the
already known outcome.
Kt
Joel rich

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On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:
>> The question is why specifically here does the Gemara object to farfetched
>> ukimtas? ...`

> One line of approach is that the Gemara had a separate line of tradition
> as to what the Halacha was and simply was  reconciling The sources with the
> already known outcome.

It doesn't sound that way from the Gemara, The Gemara goes as follows:

1. Ula makes a statement that Holachah without walking is Pasul.

2. The Gemara brings a proof against him from a Mishna (where the blood
spills, etc.)

3. The Gemara answers for Ula with an ukimta for the Mishna which doesn't
contradict his din

4. The gemara says the ukimta is unreasonable

Nowehere does it sound like we are reconciling sources with a known
outcome. It sounds like a typical give and take found all over shas
where ukimtas are simply accepted.

In Yechezqeil, 44:31, he writes that a Kohen shall 
not eat nevayla (or T?refah). Nobody can eat it so
why is there a prohibition for just the Kohen? I?m 
aware of what Kimchi and Rashi say, but it seems
to be a weak explanation. To say the Kohen needed
a special warning is stretching it.
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On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 05:24:19AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: One line of approach is that the Gemara had a separate line of tradition
: as to what the Halacha was and simply was reconciling The sources with
: the already known outcome.

I don't know if that works here.

I like the idea RETurkel repeated here some time ago that an oqimta is
the gemara's way to construct a case where the stated law holds, and
there are no counterveiling issues involved.

Which might allow us to distinguish between dinim that have outlandish
cases suggested, and a din in which could only apply in the outlandish 
case.

Here, the constraint isn't that there may be an overriding issue, it's
that it is hard to imagine a situation where blood would fall on the
floor of the azarah and not spread.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 30th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Hod: When does capitulation
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  result in holding back from others?

My first thought was somewhat off topic but feel like it should be
related... R' Yirmiyah's banishment from Bavel was over his habit of
checking shiurim by posing implausible edge cases. He ends up in EY,
and succeeds in the Y-mi.

The final question (BB 23b) before his expulsion was whether we assume
owned a bird that had one leg within 50 amos of the dovecote (ie within
the shiur for the chazaqah for assuming that's its origin) and one
leg outside?

But there is also when he questions tevu'ah growing at least 1/3 before
RH if harvested on Sukkos. Veqim lehu lerabbanan? How can you measure
such a thing? (RH 13a)

And his question on hashavas aveidah of 1/2 qav in 2 amos, or 2 qav in
8 amos? We assume yi'ush if we find less than 1 qas scattered across 3
amos. Is that a ratio? (BM 2a)

How can you say that a revi'is is the amount of mayim chayim that the
blood of a metzorah's birds would be niqar within? Wouldn't it depend
on the size of the bird? (Sotah 16b)

What if a kohein becomes a baal mum while the dam is in the air between
his hazayah and it landing on the mizveiach? (Zevachim 15a)

According to R' Meir, a miscarriage that was developed enough to have
the shape of a beheimah causes tum'as leidah. (As opposed to saying it
must be human shaped.) So, R Yirmiyah asked R Zeira, according to R
Meir, what if a woman gives birth to such a baby, a girl and the
father was meqadeish her to a man? R' Zeira points out that the child
wouldn't live 3 years anyway, so bi'ah isn't an issue. R Meir asks:
but what about marrying her sister?
This one may or may not count, as R' Acha bar Yaaqov says that R
Yirmiyah's point was to get R Zeira to laugh. (Niddar 23a) But it
does reflect what kind of thing would come to his mind.

(Tangent: There are a number of stories that indicate R Zeira needed
chearing up. Like the golam Rava sent him. RMMS tied this to "Rav
shachat lei leR Zeira".)


But when he gets to EY, the Y-mi accepts his question. (Not that the Y-mi
ever answers questions that involve guessing what the tanna / amora would
have said...) A picker can eat a snack (quantity discussed) before tu"m
was taken from the crop. As long as he is holing them. R Yirmiyah asked
whether a picker can eat an olive he was juggling -- and thus didn't
put down but also isn't just picked. (Maaseros 3:4, vilna daf 17b)


Maybe the issue in the OP is about this time rejecting an absurd -- R
Yirmiyahu-like -- oqimta is just the difference in styles in different
batei medrash? Too haskala-ish to be satisfying?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 30th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Hod: When does capitulation
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  result in holding back from others?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
>
> I like the idea RETurkel repeated here some time ago that an oqimta is
> the gemara's way to construct a case where the stated law holds, and
> there are no counterveiling issues involved.
>
> Which might allow us to distinguish between dinim that have outlandish
> cases suggested, and a din in which could only apply in the outlandish
> case.
>
> Here, the constraint isn't that there may be an overriding issue, it's
> that it is hard to imagine a situation where blood would fall on the
> floor of the azarah and not spread.


And it?s easy to imagine that the grass is poisonous or the man is a
prisoner (example from bava Basra)? This ukimta doesn?t seem more
unreasonable then so many others. In fact, it seems relatively reasonable.
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On Tue, May 01, 2018 at 06:47:36AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
:> I like the idea RETurkel repeated here some time ago that an oqimta is
:> the gemara's way to construct a case where the stated law holds, and
:> there are no counterveiling issues involved.

:> Which might allow us to distinguish between dinim that have outlandish
:> cases suggested, and a din in which could only apply in the outlandish
:> case.

: And it's easy to imagine that the grass is poisonous or the man is a
: prisoner (example from bava Basra)? This ukimta doesn't seem more
: unreasonable then so many others. In fact, it seems relatively reasonable.

But I didn't argue that those other oqimtos weren't farfetched.

I suggest exploring if the distinction is between
    a din that could only apply in the farfetched case
and
    dinim that could impact halakhah, but for clarity are illustrated
    in a case that is farfetched, but eliminates oextraneous dinim from
    the distcussion.

This is based on R' Eli Turkel's post of R' Michel Avraham's thought
in last year's discussion of oqimtos. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol35/v35n027.shtml#02>. (He offered to
send anyone interested a PDF of the article.) RMA argues that the oqimta
serves to accompilsh the latter. So, it seemed to me they were upset in
this case because it wasn't about elimminating other factors.



In a different post, I suggested another line to explore, if you prefer
it. Diffierent batei medrash had different tolerances for R Yirmiyahu's
questions, and those too also used farfetched cases. And if so, maybe
there was one beis medrash during the course of the ccenturies of
amoraim that simply had no patience for odd oqimtos; even though they
were atypical that way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> But I didn't argue that those other oqimtos weren't farfetched.
>
> I suggest exploring if the distinction is between
>     a din that could only apply in the farfetched case
> and
>     dinim that could impact halakhah, but for clarity are illustrated
>     in a case that is farfetched, but eliminates oextraneous dinim from
>     the distcussion.
>

> This is based on R' Eli Turkel's post of R' Michel Avraham's thought
> in last year's discussion of oqimtos. See
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol35/v35n027.shtml#02>. (He offered to
> send anyone interested a PDF of the article.) RMA argues that the oqimta
> serves to accompilsh the latter. So, it seemed to me they were upset in
> this case because it wasn't about elimminating other factors.
>

The case in Zevachim under discussion would seem to be the latter
(eliminating extraneous dinim) . The Mishna is stating a principle that
blood that falls on the floor can be collected and still be kosher. The
ukimta simply eliminates other extraneous dinim such as holacha without
walking from the equation. It would seem to be a perfect example to apply
R' Michel Avraham's thesis and yet the Gemara rejects the ukimta as being
unreasonable
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Please see https://goo.gl/ESJERH for
two links to a talk given by Rabbi Dr. Shnyer Leiman titled The Strange
History of Lag B'Omer.


Please see https://goo.gl/s2KHAVfor

[https://s0.wp.com/i/blank.jpg]<;https://goo.gl/s2KHAV>

The Spreading Fires Of Lag Baomer: Tempting Quick & Easy ?Spirituality?
vs. Enduring Ruchnius<https://goo.gl/s2KHAV>
goo.gl
In the past we have discussed at length (5771, 5772, 5773A, 5773B, and
5773C) how Lag Baomer is marked in minhag Ashkenaz, and contrasted it with
other, more recent customs, that have become popula?


See https://goo.gl/Hc6as9


Five Things You Should Know About Lag B'Omer
Number 2  is


There is no evidence that anyone at all celebrated Lag B'Omer before the
17th century. (Please correct me if you have evidence otherwise.) No less
an authority than Chasam Sofer was strongly opposed to Lag B'Omer
celebrations. He argued that one should not make a new Yom Tov that is not
based on a miraculous event, that has no basis in Shas and Poskim, and that
is based on the death of someone. (See here<http://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/no-no-no-no-no-minhag-ashkenaz-on-lag-baomer/>
for links.)

See https://goo.gl/Zma8pS
[https://s0.wp.com/i/blank.jpg]<;https://goo.gl/Zma8pS>

No ? No ? No ? No ? No ? Minhag Ashkenaz & Recent Lag Ba?omer
Innovations ? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ?????, ??????, ?????, ???
????<https://goo.gl/Zma8pS>
goo.gl
Yes, it is that time of the year again. Lag ba?omer is almost here. And
with it, all the hype and solicitations for trips to Meron, Chai Rotel
Mashkeh donations, upsherin, bonfires, and the l?



YL

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On Tue, May 01, 2018 at 01:34:33PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: The case in Zevachim under discussion would seem to be the latter
: (eliminating extraneous dinim) . The Mishna is stating a principle that
: blood that falls on the floor can be collected and still be kosher. The
: ukimta simply eliminates other extraneous dinim such as holacha without
: walking from the equation...

I thought it's dealing with the impossibility of blood falling on the
stone floor of the BHMQ and staying put.

And as the din could only come up in the case of that stone floor, it's
not eliminating factors to clarify something that might apply elsewhere.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I thought it's dealing with the impossibility of blood falling on the
> stone floor of the BHMQ and staying put.

> And as the din could only come up in the case of that stone floor, it's
> not eliminating factors to clarify something that might apply elsewhere.

The Gemara starts with Ula stating a din that holacha without walikng
is pasul. The Gemara then brings down the following statment from a
Mishna If blood fell from the Keli on the floor and it was gathered, it
is Kosher. The Gemara then asks on Ula from this Mishna, namely that the
blood must have moved towards the Mizbeach, e.g. holacha without walking
and it is kosher. The Gemara then answers with the implausible ukimtos
to explain the Mishna. In other words, it seems that the ukimtos are
there to explain the Mishna namely that the Mishna provides a principle
that blood that falls on the floor is kosher and the ukimtas are there
to remove any extraneous factors such as holacha without walking.

I heard a beautiful d?rash by Rabbi Yosef Shusterman (Chabad of Beverly Hills).
He said the following:
If you ask 20 people the definition of ?LOVE,? you will get 20 different responses.
However, the best definition of love is the Jewish definition.
He uses gematria. The gematria of Ahava is 13 and the gematria of Echod is 13.
?Love" is when you are at ?one? with whomever or whatever.
Theologically, the love of God is when you are at one with God.
Sometimes it takes an entire lifetime to reach that madreiga.

I am in you and you in me, mutual in divine love.
William Blake  (18th c. poet, painter and printmaker)
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