Volume 36: Number 49
Tue, 24 Apr 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:39:50 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Halacha Yomis - Hafrashas Challah, At Large
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. How does the OU separate Challah at Jewish owned factories that
manufacture bread and related items that require Challah separation? Is
there a mashgiach separating a piece of dough from every batch? Isn?t that
impractical?
A. For OU-certified restaurants and caterers, the mashgiach separates
Challah from every batch of dough. However, in factories it is not
practical to have a mashgiach present each time a batch of dough is made.
Instead the OU uses what we call the ?Tevel Matzah system.?
Open boxes of matzah that did not have Challah separated from them (i.e.
tevel) are placed in these factories next to the mixers. The mashgiach
declares that each time a batch of dough is made, a designated piece of the
matzah should become Challah and exempt that batch of dough. Even though
the matzos have already been baked and the mixer contains unbaked dough, we
have already seen that one can separate from baked matzah on raw dough when
both are obligated in Challah.
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Message: 2
From: Harry Maryles
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 13:34:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects
Yes, the Torah commands us to learn Torah day and night, But as my Rebbe,
RAS said, this Mitzvah can be fulfilled by simply reciting Kriyas Shema
in the morning and the evening.
On Sunday, April 22, 2018, 11:29:56 PM CDT, Toby Katz wrote:
> Yes, all the sciences are necessary for Torah. It is necessary that they
> exist in the world. It is not necessary that any given yeshiva student
> take away time from learning Torah in order to pursue other studies.
> I would add that we live in an amazing age where there are female
> physicists, physicians, astronomers, zoologists and botanists. How
> fortunate this is, since women do not have the same obligation to learn
> Torah day and night that men have! ...
> If Gemara is the main course while other studies ("tekufos vegimatrios")
> are just "parperaos lachochma," I say let the gentlemen eat meat and
> potatoes, while the ladies enjoy dessert.
Not that this is optimal, Those that have the ability, and desire should
spend as much time as they want/need to achieve the Torah knowledge we
all rely on to live our lives. We all need Gedolim that these kinds of
people become to naser the difficult Shaylos that constantly arise as
we progress through time.
For the rest of us, we should follow and develop our strengths and serve
God that way, while being Koveah Itim to fulfill the Mitzvah of Limud
HaTorah. This that misdirect those strengths - being urged to use their
strengths to learn Torah are in my view shortchanging them. They are
discouraging Jews from serving God and his people in the best way they
can. Where their strengths where they really lie.
More to say - no time.
HM
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
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Message: 3
From: D Rubin
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 08:26:05 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Need For Secular Knowledge
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:23:28 -0400
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> If you were arguing that we need to know what to pasqen about, not
> post-facto rationalizations that are in error but opinions of the metzi'us
> they are pasqening for... I agreed (and already posted) that a poseiq
> from LOR on up can't pasqen without knowing such things. But the hamon
> am?
What about the 'hamon am' (not sure why i don't like that term here -
patronising? unclear? unwarranted in this context?) having a deeper
understanding of what chazal meant? We can appreciate the meforshim,
and what they are teaching us, whilst simultaneously utilising our
understanding of the era's terms and sciences to better probe the
intentions of the original statements.
Dovid Rubin
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 11:15:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Need For Secular Knowledge
On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 08:26:05AM +0000, D Rubin wrote:
: > If you were arguing that we need to know what to pasqen about, ...
: > from LOR on up can't pasqen without knowing such things. But the hamon
: > am?
: What about the 'hamon am' (not sure why i don't like that term here -
: patronising? unclear? unwarranted in this context?) ...
Just to clear up the word, I meant non-posqim. I needed something that
meant someone who wasn't "from LOR on up", and therefore shouldn't be
pasqening for themselves.
: What about the 'hamon am' (not sure why i don't like that term here -
: patronising? unclear? unwarranted in this context?) having a deeper
: understanding of what chazal meant? We can appreciate the meforshim,
: and what they are teaching us...
Yes, as I said, I too believe in a role for limudei chol beyond the
utilitarian study of things that will eventually help you pay the bills.
I was addressing what I thought was a flaw in a particular argument.
There is enough Torah to keep one busy for a lifetime without topics
that require a formal secular education. The question is what to do when
"Mah shelibo chafeitz" is something like hil' qidush hachodesh.
Which brings me to a totally new aspect of this discussion: formal vs
informal education. Secular study in one's spare time was the norm in
places like Volozhin and Slabodka. (Although Slabodka students were
more likely to be reading Freud...) To the extent that RSRH thought
Volozhin were "fellow travelers on the path of Torah im Derekh Eretz"
and described them as such to his followers when fundraisers for the
yeshiva approched Frankfurt aM.
And yet the same Litvisher rabbanim and RY would campaign against
university and formal education. Perhaps their primary concern was
leaving the bubble prematurely leading to assimilation, rather than
expecting their talmidim to define away the concept of "free time"
or afraid of which ideas their students might be exposed to.
Although the Alter of Slabodka would make a case-by-case diagnosis
and give each student different guidelines, at least we could say
there were stduents for whom he thought secular study on one's own was
appropriate. And apparently the norm.
Remember, these are the same bachurim for whom the leading pass-time
when not learnig was chess. Yeshiva wasn't for everyone; the guys who
went were a bunch of intellecturals.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507 stifle others?
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Message: 5
From: Toby Katz
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:33:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects
In a message dated 4/23/2018 9:34:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, hmary...@yahoo.com writes:?
Yes, the Torah commands us to learn Torah day and night, But as my Rebbe,
RAS said, this Mitzvah can be fulfilled by simply reciting Kriyas Shema in
the morning and the evening.
?
Not that this is optimal....
?
For the rest of us, we should follow and develop our strengths and serve God that way, while being Koveah Itim to fulfill the Mitzvah of Limud HaTorah....
>>>>>
?
I agree with this. ?I am aware of the opinion that "vahagisa bo yomam
velayla" can be minimally fulfilled by saying Shma. ?Despite this, it is
not necessary for every individual to personally study math, geometry,
algebra, physics, optics, astronomy, medicine, botany, zoology and
chemistry. ?
?
?
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
?
=============
?
______________________________
?
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Message: 6
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:43:36 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects
<< I would add that we live in an amazing age where there are female
physicists, physicians, astronomers, zoologists and botanists. ?How
fortunate this is, since women do not have the same obligation to learn
Torah day and night that men have! ?There is less need than ever for men to
take time away from Torah study in order to pursue other studies.>>
And when there is a halachic question that involves detailed knowledge of
science the women should pasken the question
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:00:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects
On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:43:36PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: And when there is a halachic question that involves detailed knowledge of
: science the women should pasken the question
Except that it's arguable that pro forma women can't pasqen.
It means a poseiq needs to know enough to ask intelligent questions of
the expert. Even if the experts would end up being women, BTs who studied
the subject before accepting ol mitzvos, unobservant Jews or non-Jews.
Which is a good deal of knowledge, but doesn't require years of formal
education.
When I brought this thread over from Areivim to Avodah, my intent was not
to have a bunch of pro-secular education posts.
Rather, my focus was on the eilu va'eilu of saying that even though I believe
in the value of secular education, I cannot say it's the One True Derekh.
For example, the gemara only says that many tried to follow Rashbi's
Torah-only derekh and failed. Not that R Yishmael was right. But that
pragmatically, one worked for the masses and the didn't. And if the
context changes, so that the welfare state makes it possible for more
to succeed toing things Rashbi's way? The gemara says nothing against it.
Assuming they don't bankrupt the state that way or other Modern Israeli
political, governmental and economic issues, but again, that's the
balebatishe problem of the system failing. Even if it were chilul
hasheim issues (just to pre-empt that line of reasoning), that's not
about eschewing secular studies.
I would say the gemara leaves both options open.
And for today... For every kid who leaves chareidi life going OTD
because they feel hobbled by the lack of secular education, or the lack
of worldliness in general, or just plain constricted by the paucity of
their choices of how to live as adults there is a Mod-O kid who leaves
because of too much opennees, a lack of structure, an attraction to the
other lifestyles they're exposed to, a feeling that their parents are
fooling themselves with compromise...
To survive, we need all our options.
That said, I find it interesting that none of the arguments in favor of
limudei chol actually involved what I consider their real value: There
is too much we can't learn from Torah. Not that it's not there, just
that we don't know how to extract it.
Like when RALichtenstein saw the Chevra Qadisha try to rush the aveilim
at one levayah through so that they could begin another, he commented
that had they read Hamlet they never could have acted that way.
Not that such middos aren't in Torah sources, but they're more accessible
sometimes in literature.
And for all the awe one may get from the Wisdom of the Author when
learning Torah, it hits harder when you see Chokhmas haBorei in the
physical world, outside the context of "religious studies".
Also, by studying other topics one learns other modes of thought,
and becomes more able to think in other ways, reach other
conclusions. Mathemeticians, programmers and lawyers all learn a
precision of thought and attention to detail that helps in real-life
problem solving as well as learning.
Vekhulu for other displines.
In short... The value I find in limudei chol only starts with knowing
more and having more data to put into the Torah and the parnasah mills.
They change how one thinks in ways that improve both Torah and life
skills. Simply by having more tools in the toolbox.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507 stifle others?
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:25:22PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: It was obvious from your actions that you didn't include it in the mechira.
With this line of reasoning, one would be forced to hold like the posqim
who don't allow buying from stores (or NY's dominant beer distributor)
that sell their chameitz via a rav before Pesach, and then continue to
treat it as merchandise to be sold over Pesach.
When I was a kid, it was a big deal that we couldn't buy chameitz from
Walbaum's, including the supermarket whose parking lot was directly
across the street. It means that for a couple of months, I couldn't be
sent to the store on Fri for many of those last-minute purchases.
I presume (given who my parents would have asked in that era) that was R'
Fabian Schoenfeld's pesaq.
But as the broohaha over beer this year indicates, there is a machloqes.
We could view the sale as valid, and the Jew wrongfully selling merchandise
that belongs to someone else. Theft, rather than chameitz she'avar alav es
haPesach.
Which would imply that in our case, where bi'ur chameitz is done later
than the rav's mechirah, we would view it as wrongfully destroying someone
else's chameitz.
Assuming even the sale is effective as-of the last possible moment, therefore
guratanteeing the usual bi'ur of known chameitz would happen first, there is
still the question of what to do in case of error. Is chameitz found between
chatzos erev Pesach and tzeis at the end of the last day destroyed, or
moved to a location you told the non-Jew where to look?
I would think the latter.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507 stifle others?
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:07:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz
On 23/04/18 14:08, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:25:22PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : It was obvious from your actions that you didn't include it in the mechira.
>
> With this line of reasoning, one would be forced to hold like the posqim
> who don't allow buying from stores (or NY's dominant beer distributor)
> that sell their chameitz via a rav before Pesach, and then continue to
> treat it as merchandise to be sold over Pesach.
Not so. The owner clearly *did* intend for this chometz to be included
in the mechira, so that Jews would be able to buy it from him after
Pesach. That he doesn't take the mechira seriously is a completely
different matter, and devarim shebelev einam devarim.
But here your actions show that you were completely serious about the
mechira, but you didn't intend this to be included in it. The shtar you
signed doesn't specifically say this *is* included. Its description of
what's included very much depends on your intentions as revealed by your
actions.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:49:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz
On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 05:07:54PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Not so. The owner clearly *did* intend for this chometz to be
: included in the mechira, so that Jews would be able to buy it from
: him after Pesach. That he doesn't take the mechira seriously is a
: completely different matter, and devarim shebelev einam devarim.
But it's no more shebaleiv! Chameitz was sold within minutes of when
the mechiras chameitz was chal. What the difference between my actions
showing that I didn't intent to include this item I am then mevateil or
burn, and the beer distributors actions showing that he didn't intend
to include ANY item?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507 stifle others?
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Message: 11
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:51:13 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
At 06:31 AM 4/23/2018, RN Toby Katz wrote:
>I sent my own kids to normal Orthodox schools where they got a
>reasonably decent secular education.? That was my preference.? I
>never would have sent them to chassidishe schools.? But I would
>never lobby the government to remove from chassidishe parents the
>option of giving their children the education they prefer.??
>?
>?
>?
>--Toby Katz
I find your terminology "normal Orthodox schools" somewhat
surprising in the context of Chassidic yeshivas. What exactly do you
mean by this terminology when contrasted with Chassidic schools?
YL
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:57:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz
On 23/04/18 17:49, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 05:07:54PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Not so. The owner clearly *did* intend for this chometz to be
> : included in the mechira, so that Jews would be able to buy it from
> : him after Pesach. That he doesn't take the mechira seriously is a
> : completely different matter, and devarim shebelev einam devarim.
>
> But it's no more shebaleiv! Chameitz was sold within minutes of when
> the mechiras chameitz was chal. What the difference between my actions
> showing that I didn't intent to include this item I am then mevateil or
> burn, and the beer distributors actions showing that he didn't intend
> to include ANY item?
Again, you are conflating two questions, one of which depends on your
intentions and one which does not:
1) Is the mechira valid? Yes, regardless of your intentions.
2) What is included in the mechira. Certainly anything explicitly
included in the shtar. But the shtar's language is vague; does it apply
to *this* piece of bread? Only if you meant it to. That which you've
set aside for breakfast is clearly not included, even if the mechira
happened early in the morning. Ditto for that which you set aside to
burn.
Did it include an item on your store shelves, which you ended up selling
just 20 minutes later? We can approach this two ways:
a) It did, because you intended it to. Your intention was that your
inventory should not become treif; this is inventory, you don't want it
to be treif, therefore it's included.
b) I bo'is eima, fine, let it be as you say, and the act of selling an
item -- whether 20 minutes after the zman or 20 minutes before the end
of Achron Shel Pesach -- shows that it was not included. Even if we
were to accept this proposition (which I do not), whatever remains on
the shelves that you did *not* sell remains included. Not only did you
do nothing to indicate an intention to exclude it, you clearly did
intend to include it, since your whole purpose was that it should not
become treif.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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