Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 44

Mon, 16 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Tazria (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: barchu (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (hankman)
• 10. Non Torah Studies (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 11. When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz (Akiva Miller)

At 01:14 PM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>There are 2 main reasons why yeshiva day schools and high schools in 
>have secular studies:
>1. When the schools were founded the ONLY way to get parents to send 
>their kids was to have secular studies . A torah only school would 
>have had no students
>2. The law mandated secular studies

When Rabbi Abraham Rice started his day school in Baltimore in about 
1852  there was no law requiring the teaching of secular studies to 
young people.


>Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but 
>as a bdieved.

Ah,  so we agree that things do change with the times.  Good!

YL

At 02:16 PM 4/15/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>I Just want to point out that these colleges are for people who went 
>through years of yeshiva only education. The existence of these 
>colleges can't be used as proof that secular education is good or 
>should be mandatory for a 14 year old boy. (Women are a different 
>story entirely).

And many of those who attend these institutions find their secular 
knowledge woefully inadequate  and probably wish they had a stronger 
secular education when they were younger.

Look at the first part of the video at https://goo.gl/WKrKyT and see 
what he says about his own yeshiva education. At about 2 minutes in 
he says he discovered that he didn't know anything when it came to 
being prepared to work.

YL
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The leprosy mentioned here was special kind of leprosy
which only the Jewish people suffered from only in Israel.
It never occurred outside of Israel, even in a Jewish home.
The etiology of leprosy in the Torah was not a physical 
but rather a spiritual disease. 
The Rabbis comment: b?sorah tovah hee l?Yisroel ?
"It is good news for the Jews if a house is stricken with leprosy."
Ramban remarks that it is odd for a house made of bricks and
mortar to act as if it were alive. It would be most unusual for a
house to become sick just like a human being. Such an illness
borders on the miraculous. Why does the Torah say that a house
may be afflicted with leprosy? It means that a Jewish home is different
from other homes; it has life and spirit attached to it. When the people
who live in these homes are sinful, the very bricks of the home reflect
that sinfulness. The Rabbis tell us that leprosy is a sign of evil and sin;
therefore, it is natural that house would manifest leprosy as a sign of
its inhabitants evil. Now we can understand why the rabbis say it is good
news when a house is stricken with leprosy. If one can notice the disease
before it spreads, he has a chance to cure it. When the disease goes 
unnoticed, the real trouble ensues.
Since in today?s world we don?t have the warning of leprosy attached to our
houses, let us hope we can pick up other signs and warnings in order to be 
able to remedy whatever difficulties caused by our own sinfulness. 

The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible
Dwight L Moody
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On Sunday, April 15, 2018, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net> wrote:
> When Rabbi Abraham Rice started his day school in Baltimore in about 1852
> there was no law requiring the teaching of secular studies to young
> people.

> Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but as a
> bdieved.

> Ah,  so we agree that things do change with the times.  Good!

This is not something to be happy about. This is more along the lines of es
laasos lashem heiferu torasecha. The rabbanim has to make a very difficult
decision to violate the Halacha in order to save the next generation. This
was not uncommon in America of that time. Young Israel's sponsored mixed
dances for the same reasons. However, now that the Torah community is much
stronger they are trying to go back to the strict Halacha.

This is not something to be happy about. This is more along the lines of es
laasos lashem heiferu torasecha. The rabbanim has to make a very difficult
decision to violate the Halacha in order to save the next generation. This
was not uncommon in America of that time. Young Israel's sponsored mixed
dances for the same reasons. However, now that the Torah community is much
stronger they are trying to go back to the strict Halacha.
_______________________________________________
Yet we celebrate the Talmud which required the Rabbis to make a similar es
laasos lashem heiferu torasecha and never seem to have said now that the Torah community is much stronger they should try  to go back to the strict Halacha.
KT
Joel Rich
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At 02:02 PM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>This is not something to be happy about. This is 
>more along the lines of es laasos lashem heiferu 
>torasecha. The rabbanim has to make a very 
>difficult decision to violate the Halacha in 
>order to save the next generation. This was not 
>uncommon in America of that time. Young 
>Israel???s sponsored mixed dances for the same 
>reasons. However, now that the Torah community 
>is much stronger they are trying to go back to the strict Halacha. ?

On the contrary,  this is something that is 
appropriate for our time and the future.

Do you really think that the Torah community is 
much stronger?  Externally it appears so, but, as 
R. A. Miller once said to me,  "There is a thin 
layer of frumkeit and underneath it is all rotten."

How much Chillul HaShem do we see?  How much sexual abuse do we hear about?

See my article


"<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jp/frum_or_ehrlich.pdf>Frum 
or Ehrliche?" The Jewish Press, October 20, 2006, 
page 1.  This article is also available at 
"<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/Frum_or_Ehrlich_v3.pdf>Frum 
or Ehrlich". 
<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jp/Letters%20To%20The%20Editor_11_1_06.pdf>Letters 
to Editor

Also see 
"<http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/front-page/the-obligation-to-support-a-family/2015/02/18/0/?print>The 
Obligation to Support a Family"  The Jewish 
Press, February 18, 2015, front page.

YL
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.
R' Joel Rich asked:
> According to the S"A 139:7, after the oleh "commands" the
> community to bless HKB"H before reading the Torah, the
> congregation responds "baruch hashem hamevorach l?olam vaed"
> and the oleh the repeats the phrase in order to be included
> with the congregation of blessers. Why does he wait and not
> utter the phrase with the congregation?

Incidentally, the same situation and question applies by the Borchu
prior to Birchos Krias Shema, as per S"A 57:1.

I can't bring any source, but in my mind, the simple answer is that if
the oleh would say it together with the congragation, he might not be
heard. The delay is to insure that no one mistakenly thinks that the
oleh is excluding himself.

I was going to ask a related question about Kaddish that has bothered
me for some time. Namely: When the Kaddish-sayer says "Yhei Shmei
Raba" himself, why does Mishne Brurah 56:2 tell him to say it
*quietly*?

But I am *not* going to ask that question, because RJR's post has
forced me to compare these tefilos carefully, and I have found a
difference that might help to answer his question.

RJR was very correct when he used the word "command" to describe what
the oleh is saying. The word "Borchu" is indeed the tzivui/imperative
form of the verb. But no comparable command exists in Kaddish.

Yes, the Kaddish-leader does command them "v'imru", but he even
specifies what it is that he wants them to say. Namely, a simple
"amen". And so they do. May I suggest that the "Yhei Shmei Raba" is an
impromptu addition, that the tzibur adds of their own accord, NOT
commanded to do so by the Kaddish-leader. Thus, there is no fear of
causing any illusions that he is somehow excluding himself. Indeed, he
himself added to the praise by saying "Yisborach v'yishtabach", which
(one might say) is simply an expanded version of "Yhei Shmei Raba".

So I guess the real question on MB 56:2 is not why the leader says
Yhei quietly instead of loudly, but perhaps we could ask whether the
leader really needs to say Yhei at all.

Akiva Miller

1) Is the community as strong as it was back when Torah was transmitted 
orally?
2) Who is the rabbi who is going to overturn decisions made by the 
Ta'naim (as opposed to overturning decisions made by school 
administrators in the 50s)?

On 4/15/2018 9:45 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Yet we celebrate the Talmud which required the Rabbis to make a similar es
> laasos lashem heiferu torasecha and never seem to have said now that
> the Torah community is much stronger they should try  to go back to
> the strict Halacha.
> KT

R? Marty Bluke wrote:
?R' Chaim Manaster wrote a long piece saying that secular studies especially
science "literally create emuna and awe of the borei olam". While this may
be true, the Charedi response is that learning Torah is by far the best way
to create emuna and awe of the borei olam and of course the most important
activity that a person can do bar none. So why should we try to learn emuna
from science when we can get it from the ultimate source, Torah.?

My response to R? Marty makes a number of assumptions that may not be universally accepted but that I firmly believe.

The times are different, the level of knowledge is different both in the
physical sciences and in Torah hakedosha. Dare I say that these as a
function of time seem to be moving on trajectories that are unfortunately
inverse to each other ? particularly in the latter time frame that we live
in ? most intensely over the last 10 to 12 decades but can already be
clearly seen over the last 4 centuries. With each dor we can see an ongoing
diminution in the level of our Torah havanah while a commensurate level of
greater scientific understanding has come about (with perhaps the exception
of a very few yechidei de?ah such as the Gra and a few others who may have
achieved levels more common in much earlier times before them).

While Chazal tell us ?haphoch v?haphoch d?kol bah? and that certainly for
those who are capable of a great level of Torah understanding such as those
of Chazal  who were doresh all the essin or all the taggin in the Torah
probably could have been able to find quantum mechanics or tensor analysis
or molecular biology in the Torah if they so chose.  Certainly if the
scientists of our day were able to discover these facts, Chazal certainly
were able to as well. But I would point out that there is no maimre in
Chazal that relates to having discovered any of this knowledge through
their pilpul and passing this on to us. Perhaps they did not feel it
important enough to report. But this level of understanding in Torah in our
times is sadly not available in our times. Given the level of limud for the
average person (unlike for some of the gedolim of our times) in our time
the level of yira and emuna they might achieve may be more readily attained
through a more readily available scie
 ntific s
 tudy of the wonders of the very small and the vastness of the very large
 and the highly  intricate and awe inspiring workings of the biological
 world at all scales and the beauty in how it all fits together so
 perfectly and so beautifully described by mathematics. The average person
 (maybe I am just giving away my matsav) will not find much yira or emuna
 from learning that which is typical of our yeshivos (say a sugia in shas
 say ?succa govoah m?esrim ama or a sugia on movuy or on tumas negaim ? of
 hilchos melicha or muktsa  in shulchan aruch etc). For the average person
 these are not awe inspiring subjects and unfortunately only a true godol
 or great talmid chochom could extract yira and emunah from these cut and
 dry subjects. Such inspiration for the average yid are fewer and much
 further in between from most of his limud of Torah. This as a result of
 our sad diminution in our Torah learning ability.  Today, given our
 greater abilities in understanding the Borei?s briah it
  is much
  easier for us to find yira  and emuna from our hisbonenus in them. So ?of
  course the most important activity that a person can do bar none? is
  Torah, but a very solid adjunct in our times for a vehicle to further
  inspire yira and emunah would very effectively be math and scientific
  knowledge.

Part of the mitsva of emuna, is not simply belief, but to go out and prove
to your satisfaction (to be doresh v?choker) the truth of the Borei and 
his achdus and that he is the Borei olam and revealed Himself to us at
matan Torah and so on. To the extent that science facilitates this search
it is a MITSVA and not just mere secular studies at the cost of Torah
studies. Clearly the experience our ancestors experienced at yetsias
Mitzrayim, al hayam (ma sheroaso shifcha al hayam etc) and revelation on
sinai etc was more than enough to inspire tremendous yira, awe and emunah
without the need for any help from science (which was not great in their
period in any case) and on through the period of the nevi?im and the batei
mikadash and later Chazal inspiration was possible through there havana of
Torah alone. But I do not see that to be the case in our generation and
times.

?So why should we try to learn emuna from science when we can get it from
the ultimate source, Torah?? Because in our day it may be another
additional (I hesitate to say ?more? effective way b?avonoseinu harabim for
most people) very effective way for most average people.?

So today, for the yechidei olom the tried and true method of attaining
great yira and emunah through limud Torah may be the best way to go as we
have witnessed these great traits in our great gedolim, but that recipe may
not work so well in our times for everybody else without additional help.

I am also not comfortable with the notion that there are certain areas of
knowledge that are off limits to even our gedolim. I feel quite confident
to assert that in our time, non of even our gedolim come to discover the
great advances in science through there limud hatorah. If they know these
subjects it came from sources outside of their	linudei kodesh. But Chazal
was not constrained in their knowledge. They were required to know shivim
loshonos, they studied kishuv and astrolgy and the chukos hagoyim and
certainly the science of their day (sometimes even quoting chachmei ha?umos
and cf the Rambam quoting Aristo often etc [I also imagine the Rambam
learned his medicine in the conventional way mostly including sources
outside of Torah]). I feel sad for many talmidei chachamim in our day who
lack the background in (sometimes in even minimal) math and science to
grasp that they are saying a peshat in a sugia that could not be, and to
seek out another peshat therein or to at l
 east rea
 lize there is a problem they need to deal with to get a proper havana.

Also the chiyuv to teach a son an umnus, obviously means, other than the
chiyuv to teach one?s son Torah. We do not assume that his limud haTorah
will suffice to teach him an umnus as well. The conventional ?secular?
methods of teaching an umnus are to be followed. If you want your son to be
a carpenter, send him to carpentry school ? do not expect him to come from
yeshiva a talmid chochom AND a carpenter just from his limud haTorah.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster






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Is it not likely that the prohibition is against non-Torah learning which
serves no purpose other than engaging in those studies for their own
interest and excitement?

There is no prohibition against learning any skills for earning a
livelihood.

Also many of those exciting developing sciences were closely tied to
various philosophies. Pythagoras was a cult/religious/philosophical leader.
Even today and certainly Einstien and his group discussed and wrote
extensively about esoteric life values in connection with their work and
research.



Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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.
On Erev Pesach morning, we explicitly divest ourselves of ALL the
chometz we own, whether we know about it or not, with no exceptions.

It seems to me that there is indeed one very obvious exception,
namely, the chometz which the Rav has not yet sold to the non-Jew. (I
suppose that one could avoid this situation by delaying the bittul
until the very end of the fifth hour, but the danger of missing that
deadline scares me.)

I have not seen any sifrei halacha, nor any pamphlets or bulletins or
websites, that mention this point. Perhaps everyone just presumes that
people have this exception in mind when they say the bittul?

Here's a better way to phrase my question: Would a mental reservation
be valid in this case? Perhaps halacha ignores the mental reservation,
and only cares about the actual words of the bittul - which explicitly
refers to ALL the chometz. If halacha does allow this exception - and
people do have this exception in mind either explicitly or implicitly
- then there is no problem. But I would like to hear that this is
confirmed by the poskim.

Some might say, "What's the problem? There is chometz in his house,
but he got rid of it via BOTH bitul and mechira! He is surely okay!"

No, I can see two very serious problems. But before I go further, I
must reiterate that these problems would only arise in the case where
one does his Bitul Chometz BEFORE the Rav transfers ownership to the
non-Jew. (If the ownership transfer occurs first, then at the time of
the Bitul, there is no problem, because the only chometz still in his
possession is really and truly nothing more than the chometz that he
is unaware of.)

1) If there is still chometz in his home, and he is expecting for it
to be sold to a non-Jew several minutes or hours later, but the words
of the bittul - "All the chometz in my possession, whether I know
about it or not" - are to be taken a face value, doesn't this case
aspersion on the sincerity/validity of the bittul?

2) Perhaps even worse: After Pesach, when it is time to re-acquire the
chometz, he can no longer rely on "he got rid of it via BOTH bitul and
mechira! He is surely okay!" Rather, a determination must be made. If
he got rid of it via mechira (despite happening after the bittul),
then the chometz may be eaten. But if, in the final analysis, he got
rid of it via bitul, then it is assur b'hanaah (Mechaber 448:5, MB
448:25).

So... anyone know if any poskim write about this?

Akiva Miller


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