Volume 36: Number 43
Sun, 15 Apr 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: D Rubin
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 12:53:59 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha
This reply was sent earlier to R' Michah and is still valid:
I agree. With respect, I did allude to ?learning skills and a mode of
thinking? in both of my previous posts: ?the entire thinking process is
aided by a secular education?, ? to be able to extrapolate and apply
mathematical theory?, and my reference to ?the [lack of] overall
intellectual integrity?.
Related to this:
Is it incorrect to posit that a lot of ma?amorei Chazal was formulated in accordance to their understanding and cultural absorption of sciences of their day?
Can we not further Torah with our understanding of modern science, both
peripheral and integral ? even though clearly lacking their sya?ato
dishmayo and Ru?ach HaKodesh?
Is that not the derech taught both by the Ba?al Shem and his disciples, and the GRA and his school [to use the chochmoh of the world..]?
Another q: Do we view Torah SheBa?al Peh on a par with Torah SheBiKsav, in
the sense that it must be learnt ?as is?, without consideration of the
worldview that shaped those comments? [I rather think we can see two views
in the Rishoinim.]
Dovid Rubin
________________________________
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:20:06 PM
To: Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah
Cc: Moshe Yehuda Gluck; 'D Rubin'
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
I think there are two opposite issues that haven't yet been raised that
I want to add to the discussion.
1- The iqar of learning in 1st to 12th grades is learning skills and a mode
of thinking.
The same is true of much of secular education. A person learns more in
algegra class than the specific facts under discussion. A programmer learns
tools for viewing problems that can help (if used) in general life. Social
Studies teaches a way of viewing other peoples and other societies, etc...
This can't be short-cut with a book on the specific facts necessary to
learn Eiruvin, Chullin, or my example of the minimum size of a circular
sukkah. (Which, BTW, was R/Dr Leon Ehrenpreis's launching pad for teaching
calculus. See my "hesped" at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/r-dr-eliezer-ehrenpreis-zl>.)
I am leaving the question unanswered as to whether this broad perspective
thing is something we should want to learn. (The regulars can guess my
answr anyway.) I just wanted to add this element to the conversation.
2- Posqim. Learning may not require knowing much about the world, but
applying that knowledge halakhah lemaaseh does.
A poseiq can only rely on experts once he knows enough to know when to
ask a question. When something that seems obvious may not be.
Picture a poseiq being asked about whether it is mutar to throw some
boy our of HS without knowing the world teenage boys are now living
in (subjected to?), what the norms are in yeshiva, out of yeshiva but
in our seviva, what temptations exist beyond the bubble...? Some psych,
some social work... Would the poseiq even know where to begin when
talking to an expert?
Would the expert end up being so relied upon that his choice of
presentation will pretty much determine the pesaq?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507 strict justice?
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Message: 2
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:39:19 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
R' Chaim Manaster wrote a long piece saying that secular studies especially
science "literally create emuna and awe of the borei olam". While this may
be true, the Charedi response is that learning Torah is by far the best way
to create emuna and awe of the borei olam and of course the most important
activity that a person can do bar none. So why should we try to learn emuna
from science when we can get it from the ultimate source, Torah.
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Message: 3
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:45:43 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 3:01 PM, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
wrote:
>
> The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a
> regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance
> secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.
>
>
> Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.
>
>
> The Gra was sui generis, when he studied mathematics in his youth he
> already knew shas and poskim.?
>
>
> Can you verify this assertion?
>
Not really but given that the Gra was a super genius and the stories that
abound about how much he knew as a child it is certainly plausible to
believe so. The fact is that no one really knows how old the Gra was when
he learned these things so your assertion that he learned mathematics as a
youth is unprovable as well.
>
>
> Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?
>
>
> Is halacha not timeless? Is the value of Torah less in 2018 then it was in
> 1518?
>
>
> Halacha evolves with the times. It is not static. If it were, there
> would be big problems, thus the values of Torah remains supreme.
>
>
>
And that is why the Rama writes "But it is not for a person to learn
anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic decisors that come
after them and through this they will acquire this world and the world to
come. But not with learning any other wisdoms. " It is very simple
according to the Rama, the study of Torah is what Hashem wants us to do and
is what will get us into the world to come and the study of secular studies
will not. That fact remains the same in 2018 as it was 1518, that a person
should devote himself to the learning of torah and not secular studies.
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Message: 4
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 12:44:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
At 10:45 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>And that is why the Rama writes "But it is not
>for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna
>and Gemara and the halachic decisors that come
>after them and through this they will acquire
>this world and the world to come. But not with
>learning any other wisdoms. " It is very simple
>according to the Rama, the study of Torah is
>what Hashem wants us to do and is what will get
>us into the world to come and the study of
>secular studies will not. That fact remains the
>same in 2018 as it was 1518, that a person
>should devote himself to the learning of torah and not secular studies.
The facts do not remain the same in 2018 as in
1518. The day school movement in the US as well
as all of the Orthodox schools throughout the
world where secular studies are routinely taught
from kindergarten on show that things have changed.
Please spend the time to read
"<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/history-of-the-day-school-movement-in-america-1880-1916/2017/07/06/>History
of the Day School Movement in America (1880 ?
1916)" Glimpses Into American Jewish History Part
147 The Jewish Press, July 6, 2017. This article
may also be read at
"<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/history_day_school_1880_1916.pdf>History
of the Day School Movement in America (1880-1916)"
"<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/the-early-day-school-movement-in-america-1786-1879/2017/05/30/>The
Early Day School Movement in America (1786 -
1879)" Glimpses Into American Jewish History Part
146 The Jewish Press, May 30, 2017. This article
may also be read
at
"<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/history_day_school_1786_1879.pdf>History
of the Day School Movement in America (1786-1879)"
"<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/the-early-day-school-movement-in-america/2017/05/04/>The
Early Day School Movement in America" Glimpses
Into American Jewish History Part 145 The Jewish
Press, May 5, 2017. This article may also be
read at
"<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/history_day_school_1654_1785.pdf>History
of the Day School Movement in America (1654 ? 1785)
YL
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Message: 5
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 13:39:38 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:10 PM, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>> And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi world agrees with his
>> teshuva.
> If so, then how do you account for the many Chareidim here in the US who
> attend Touro College, enroll in TTI (See https://goo.gl/hnRCy6 ), attend
> the training programs the Agudah sponsors both here in Brooklyn and in
> Lakewood, as well as many other options available. Many seminaries today
> offer programs leading to college degrees both here and in Israel.
Touro College was established against the wishes of the Charedi Gedolim see
http://haemtza.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/yosefs-folly.html for example for
details.
> My understanding is that more and more Chareidim, both men and women, in
> EY are pursuing higher secular education.
Again against the wishes of the Charedi Gedolim. R' Steinman called Charedi
colleges for women, a pig with a streimel (see
http://www.kikar.co.il/216994.html ). That same article quotes R' Yitzchak
Zilberstein (author of a widely read series on halacha) as saying:
" *Rachel Imenu sat on the idols and didn't burn them. She wanted to
denigrate the wisdom of the other nations, she didn't want to burn them,
rather to teach the Jewish people, I don't need any outside wisdom and
therefore she was priviliged with having Yosef who astounded the world with
his wisdom which was solely torah based. *
*We have to instill in our daughters: A jewish home that is free of any
trace of non-Jewish wisdom and learns only Torah will never be hurt."*
>> There is no question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R' Baruch
>> Ber. The Rama writes:
>> "But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara
>> and the halachic decisors that come after them and through this they will
>> acquire this world and the world to come. But not with learning any other
>> wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to learn through happenstance all
>> other knowledge as long as it isn't a book of heresy. This is what called
>> by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person should not take a trip in the
>> Pardes until he has filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and he
>> knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"
>> The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a
>> regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance
>> secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.
> Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.
The Gra was sui generis, when he studied mathematics in his youth he
already knew shas and poskim.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Isserles
> Not only was Isserles a renowned Talmudic and legal scholar, he was also
> learned in Kabbalah, and studied history, astronomy and philosophy. He
> taught that "the aim of man is to search for the cause and the meaning
> of things" ("Torath ha-Olah" III., vii.). He also held that "it is
> permissible to now and then study secular wisdom, provided that this
> excludes works of heresy... and that one [first] knows what is permissible
> and forbidden, and the rules and the mitzvot" (Shulkhan Aruch, Yoreh
> De'ah, 246, 4). Maharshal reproached him for having based some of his
> decisions on Aristotle. His reply was that he studied Greek philosophy
> only from Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, and then only on Shabbat
> and Yom Tov (holy days) -- and furthermore, it is better to occupy
> oneself with philosophy than to err through Kabbalah (Responsa No. 7).
Not sure what you point is here, the Rama is quoted exactly as I wrote, you
cal leanr secular studies only now and then and only after you know shas
and poskim.
> And how many people are capable of capable of learning "anything but
> Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after them."
> as I pointed out earlier the Meddrah in Koheles as well as the Mishna
> Brurah make it clear that only a very small percentage of people are
> capable of studying Torah all day.
> Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?
Is halacha not timeless? Is the value of Torah less in 2018 then it was in
1518?
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:01:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
At 06:39 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>Again against the wishes of the Charedi Gedolim.
>R' Steinman called Charedi colleges for women, a
>pig with a streimel (see?
><http://www.kikar.co.il/216994.html>http://www.kikar.co.il/216994.html
>). That same article quotes R' Yitzchak
>Zilberstein (author of a widely read series on halacha) as saying:
>
>" Rachel Imenu sat on the idols and didn't burn
>them. She wanted to denigrate the wisdom of the
>other nations, she didn't want to burn them,
>rather to teach the Jewish people, I don't need
>any outside wisdom and therefore she was
>priviliged with having Yosef who astounded the
>world with his wisdom which was solely torah based.?
>
>We have to instill in our daughters: A jewish
>home that is free of any trace of non-Jewish
>wisdom and learns only Torah will never be hurt."
Too bad this statement does not differentiate
between un-Jewish and non-Jewish. as RSRH did. I
agree that we do not want un-Jewish influences in
the Orthodox world. However, there is no problem with non-Jewish influences.
I wonder if they are against the use of, for
example, modern medicine or electricity or
running water, and countless other things that
are "non-Jewish wisdom and come into Chareidi homes.
>>There is no question that the simple reading of
>>the Rama is like R' Baruch Ber. The Rama writes:
>>
>>"But it is not for a person to learn anything
>>but Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic
>>decisors that come after them and through this
>>they will acquire this world and the world to
>>come. But not with learning any other wisdoms.
>>In any case, it is permitted to learn through
>>happenstance all other knowledge as long as it
>>isn't a book of heresy.? This is what called
>>by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person
>>should not take a trip in the Pardes until he
>>has filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah]
>>and he knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"
>>
>>The Rama clearly writes that secular studies
>>cannot be learned on a regular set basis. Not
>>only that, but he writes that even happenstance
>>secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.
>
>Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.
>
>
>The Gra was sui generis, when he studied
>mathematics in his youth he already knew shas and poskim.?
Can you verify this assertion?
>>And how many people are capable of capable of
>>learning "anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara
>>and the halachic decisors that come after
>>them."? ? as I pointed out earlier the Meddrah
>>in Koheles as well as the Mishna Brurah make it
>>clear that only a very small percentage of
>>people are capable of studying Torah all day.
>
>Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?
>
>
>Is halacha not timeless? Is the value of Torah
>less in 2018 then it was in 1518?
Halacha evolves with the times. It is not
static. If it were, there would be big problems,
thus the values of Torah remains supreme.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi
>world agrees with his teshuva.
>
>There is no question that the simple reading of
>the Rama is like R' Baruch Ber. The Rama writes:
>
>"But it is not for a person to learn anything
>but Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic
>decisors that come after them and through this
>they will acquire this world and the world to
>come. But not with learning any other wisdoms.
>In any case, it is permitted to learn through
>happenstance all other knowledge as long as it
>isn't a book of heresy. This is what called by
>the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person should
>not take a trip in the Pardes until he has
>filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and
>he knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"
>
>The Rama clearly writes that secular studies
>cannot be learned on a regular set basis. Not
>only that, but he writes that even happenstance
>secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.
I must admit that I do not understand your
assertion against secular studies in conjunction
with Torah studies even for boys at a young age..
The day school movement in the US was founded on
the principle of a dual curriculum. The model was
RJJ. Today in the US the vast majority of
yeshivas follow this model save for some of the
Chassidic yeshivas. Gedolim like Rav Yitzchok
Hutner (Chaim Berlin), (Mr.) Shraga Feivel
Mendlowitz (Torah Vodaath), Rav Avraham
Kalmanovitz and Rav Shmuel Birenbaum (Mir), Rav
Dr. Yosef Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab (Yeshiva
RSRH) , to name just a few, headed yeshivas in
which boys were taught Torah and secular studies
in elementary and high school grades. I am sure
they were well aware of what the RAMA wrote and
paskened that it did not apply today.
Even in Europe in the 19th century there were
some places where secular and Torah studies were
taught along side each other. The Kelm Talmud
Torah was one. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelm_Talmud_Torah
"In addition to Jewish subjects, students studied
general subjects such as geography, mathematics,
and Russian language and literature for three
hours a day. The Kelm Talmud Torah was the first
traditional yeshiva in the Russian empire to give
such a focus to general studies. "
There was the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_von_L%C3%A4mel>L?mel-School
in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem>Jerusalem
where both Torah and secular subjects were taught.
So I really do not understand why you focus on
the RAMA when it is clear that yeshiva education
in many places, since the 19th century and
throughout the 20th century involved a
combination of Torah and secular studies.
What are you arguing about?
YL
YL
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Message: 8
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:16:15 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
On 4/15/2018 11:10 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> My understanding is that more and more Chareidim, both men and women,
> in EY are pursuing higher secular education.
I just want to point out that these colleges are for people who went
through years of yeshiva only education. The existence of these colleges
can't be used as proof that secular education is good or should be
mandatory for a 14 year old boy. (Women are a different story entirely).
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:14:25 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> "History of the Day School Movement in America (1880-1916)
...
There are 2 main reasons why yeshiva day schools and high schools in have
secular studies:
1. When the schools were founded the ONLY way to get parents to send their
kids was to have secular studies . A torah only school would have had no
students
2. The law mandated secular studies
Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but as a
bdieved.
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