Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 41

Wed, 11 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Alexander Seinfeld)
• 2. Re: Minagim and the Origins of Upsherin (Micha Berger)
• 3. Did the Jews Really Speak Hebrew When They Were in Mitzraim? (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Legendary Chassidic Rebbe Admits: The Noda BiYehudah Was Correct In His Opposition to Lisheim Yichud (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Did the Jews Really Speak Hebrew When They Were in Mitzraim? (Marty Bluke)
• 6. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 7. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (D Rubin)
• 8. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Marty Bluke)

Playing devil?s advocate here. For the record, I have college and graduate
degrees, my children all read and write well etc.

However, in response to Prof. Levine. If the cost of that exposure to
American secular culture (language, history, values, etc.) is that a
certain percentage of children may be enticed by it and go OTD - more than
would have otherwise - then, yes, it makes sense. That?s an unacceptable
cost. I?m not saying that that is a real cost, but that is the perception.
If you want to change the practice, you have to change that perception
(which may have some truth to it, I don?t know).


>Does it make sense that a Bar Mitzvah boy who is born in America
>cannot read English on an 8th grade level?  Cannot read an 8th grade
>science book and write a report in acceptable English about what he
>has read? Cannot speak English properly?  Knows nothing about the
>history of this country and cannot relate, at least briefly, what
>happened during the Revolutionary War and the civil War?  Has the
>mathematics skills of a 3rd grader at best? Does not have a basic
>knowledge of science and hence has no idea of how, say,  the
>digestive system works?  (BTW,  one way appreciating the wonders of
>HaShem is to study how some of the systems in our bodies work.)  Has
>no real knowledge of how our government works?   I think not.
>

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:35:39AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 10/04/18 11:21, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >(This original version of the minhag has its logic; Shemu'el was a nazir,
: >and he lived in the BHMQ starting at age 3. So you see how he would get
: >associated with a haircut at age 3.

: Shmuel moved in to the mishkan at the age of two, not three.

As per the same discussion in previous years.... That's what the rishonim
run with -- see Rashi and Radaq on the pasuq. Although Rashi says 22 mo
in our girsa, I think the other girsa of 24 mo is more likely, because...

As the Radaq points out, this fits halakhah, that the time a woman
is mish'ubedes to nurse is 24 months.

But while elegent, it is not mukhrach that Chanah kept to the minimum.
(Thinking out loud: The exchange in 1:22-23 fits better if it was about
Chanah not attending an aliyah laregel that was after Shem'el was 2. After
all, why would Elqanah have pushed her to bring ShMemu'el to the mishkan
before it was safe?)

More to the point (and back to repeating myself), there is a machloqes
in the medrash whether Shemu'el lived 52 or 53 years. And since that's
50 years after he was weaned and brought to the Mishkan, it implies a
machloqes about when he moved into the Mishkan.

The minhag was apparently based on the position that he was niftar at 52,
and thus moved into the Mishkan at 3.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

One often hears the assertion that one of the things the kept the Jews from
assimilating in Egypt is that they spoke Hebrew and not Egyptian.  Indeed, 
this is one of the justifications given by those who want their children to
speak Yiddish rather than say English. (For the record,  as far as I know,
Yiddish is essentially Middle Deutsch, and hence to my mind has no inherent
"Jewish" quality.)


However,  there are opinions that say that the Jews spoke Egyptian while in
Egypt.	I have posted some selections from the Sefer Lashon HaKodesh,
History, Holiness, & Hebrew by Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein at


http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jews_egypt_hebrew.pdf


While it is true that according to one Medrash the Jews did speak Hebrew while in Egypt,  there is another Medrash that contradicts this.


From the above reference:


GOD SPEAKS TO THE JEWS IN EGYPTIAN

While the above sources point to the notion that the Jews in Egypt
did not speak Egyptian, there is another Midrash that implies otherwise.
This Midrash likens the Jews in Egypt to a prince who was kidnapped
for an extended period of time. Finally, his father the king decided to
exact his revenge on the kidnappers and release his son. Upon saving his
son, the king conversed with the child in the language spoken to him by
the kidnappers. Similarly, explains the Midrash, after God redeemed the
Jews from exile in Egypt, He spoke to them in Egyptian.221
The Midrash explains that the Jews had been in Egypt for many
years, where they had learned the Egyptian language.222 Therefore, when
God wanted to give them the Torah, He began to speak with them in
the Egyptian language with which they were already familiar. He began
by proclaiming, "I (anochi, ) am Hashem, your God ... !"223 According
to this Midrash, the word "anochi" in this context does not denote the
Hebrew word for "I"; rather, it refers to the Egyptian224 word anoch (11:ix),
which means "love" and "endearment."225 One Midrashic source even
explains that the Jews forgot Lashon HaKodesh, which is why God had to
speak to them in Egyptian.

From page 99

THEY SPOKE LASHON HAKODESH, BUT TOOK ORDERS IN EGYPTIAN
Similarly, we can posit that even when exiled to Egypt, the Jews indeed
continued to speak Lashon HaKodesh. However, they were not accustomed
to accepting orders in Lashon HaKodesh; their Egyptian taskmasters
spoke to them only in Egyptian. Therefore, at Mount Sinai, when
God was giving the Jews the Decalogue, He spoke to them in Egyptian,
the language in which they were accustomed to "taking orders."

THEY MAINTAINED THE ESSENCE OF LASHON HAKODESH, IF NOT
THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE

Even if we assume that the Jews completely forgot Lashon HaKodesh,
we can still reconcile the contradiction based on a previously mentioned
concept set forth by Rambam. Rambam, as we already mentioned, writes
that Lashon HaKodesh is called so because it lacks the explicitness found in
other languages, making it a chaste and holy language. Therefore, one can
explain that although the Jews in Egypt spoke the Egyptian language, they
did not deviate from the moral standards manifested by Lashon HaKodesh.
God had to speak to them in Egyptian since that was the only language
with which they were familiar. However, they did not change their manner
of speaking; that is, they internalized the refined and moral linguistic style
of Lashon HaKodesh, which they maintained even when speaking Egyptian.

And from the Chapter Summary

After discussing Joseph's personal exile to Egypt, we segued into discussing
the Jews' collective exile to Egypt. A well-known Midrash states
that the Jews in Egypt did not change their language, meaning that they
continued to speak Lashon HaKodesh. However, another Midrash states
that God began presenting the Torah to them in Egyptian, because that
was the language that they spoke in Egypt. While these two Midrashim
seem at odds with each other, we presented several approaches to reconcile
them and give a more concrete answer as to whether the Jews in
Egypt spoke Lashon HaKodesh or Egyptian:

? Radak explains that there were some Jews who were not enslaved,
and they spoke Lashon HaKodesh exclusively. Their not-so-fortunate
brethren spoke Lashon HaKodesh between themselves, and
Egyptian with their Egyptian overlords.
? Alternatively, it is possible that all the Jews spoke Lashon
HaKodesh, yet God presented them the Torah in Egyptian
because they were acclimated to accepting orders in that
language.
? A third possibility is that since the hallmark of Lashon HaKodesh
is its embodiment of holiness and purity, even if the Jews forgot
the literal language, they could still be said to speak Lashon
HaKodesh- The Holy Language-if their manner of speech remained
holy.

After the Jews exited Egypt and eventually arrived in the Land of
Israel, establishing their own rule, it is clear that Lashon HaKodesh alone
served as their spoken language. This arrangement lasted for several
centuries until the language began receding under Babylonian influence,
toward the end of the First Temple period.

Thus oft made assertion that the Jews spoke Hebrew while in Mitzraim may not be true.

YL







<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jews_egypt_hebrew.pdf>



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From https://goo.gl/QEUCPq


However, what is less well known, is that the Divrei Chaim, despite being a
great Chasidic leader, actually said that the Noda BiYehuda was correct in
the matter, and, based on that, his followers do not say lisheim yichud
before sefira.


Please see the above URL for more.


YL
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On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:06 PM, Professor L. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu>
wrote:

> One often hears the assertion that one of the things the kept the Jews
> from assimilating in Egypt is that they spoke Hebrew and not Egyptian.
> Indeed,  this is one of the justifications given by those who want their
> children to speak Yiddish rather than say English. (For the record,  as far
> as I know, Yiddish is essentially Middle Deutsch, and hence to my mind has
> no inherent "Jewish" quality.)
>
>
> ...
> Thus oft made assertion that the Jews spoke Hebrew while in Mitzraim may
> not be true.
>
> YL
>
>
>
May not be true is the operative word, there is no disputing that there is
an opinion in Chazal that it is true and that the Jews spoke only Hebrew in
Egypt.  This is the opinion that the Chasidim follow and therefore they are
against speaking English. I don't see how you can find fault with them when
they are following a valid opinion in Chazal.
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R' Dovid Rubin:
<SNIP>Leaving English aside (G-d forbid they should be able to pick up a
secular book and actually understand it!), the mathematics they're taught
(in which [some of] the amoro'im, ge'onim, rishonim, acharonim were
tremendously proficient) at their last school year [12/13 yr olds!] is at a
level of 8/9 yr olds at best! Biology, which could so help them in their
study of Chullin is [virtually?] non-existent.
--------------- 

I'm cherry-picking one thing out of R' DR's post - he mentioned that biology
could so help them in their study of Chullin. In fact, this is an argument
that is often made (and has been made by me in the past, and I'm pretty sure
I saw it elsewhere in this thread as well): Learning secular studies is
necessary to help people in their Torah studies. 

I'm not convinced anymore that that's true. I think that there's actually
only a very narrow band of Torah studies that are benefitted by a very
narrow band of secular studies. For example, I have a sefer written by a BMG
Rosh Chabura to help in understanding the trigonometry in Eiruvin. The
entire sefer (including the covers and flyleaf) is 20 pages long. Do those
sugyos in Eiruvin justify a full year of math instruction? (Trigonometry was
Math III when I was in high school in Monsey.) Why don't we just give
everyone learning Eiruvin a copy of this sefer, and skip Math III?

Same with biology. I passed my biology Regents. But as I recall, it wasn't
very helpful in learning Chullin. The most help I got was from Sefer Temunei
Chol, and that was enough to understand what was going on. So how is
learning Chullin a justification for spending a year on biology in high
school? 

I can go on; my thesis is that there is not much basis to the argument that
a well-rounded education makes much of a difference in understanding Torah.
What would be much more efficient and effective would be a focused companion
sefer to Shas that gives the background on those sugyos that need some
secular knowledge in order to understand them. 

KT,
MYG

P.S. Writing the above makes me want to start writing that companion sefer!

R? Moshe Yehudah,



Thank you for taking notice of my post!



?Only a narrow band of Torah studies are benefited by a narrow band of secular studies? - I agree with you - but only in part.



  1.  If I may add the word ?directly? to your statement (- ?only a narrow
  band of Torah studies are *directly* benefited?), as, arguably, the
  entire thinking process is aided by a secular education [though
  admittedly, this was not the thrust of my original statement].
  2.  Re the case in point, Chullin and biology. Though, in general, the
  biology syllabus does not necessarily help in learning Chulin, biology
  could be taught in a manner that would: i.e. a teacher familiar with the
  various sugyos, could give a thorough grounding in anatomy, etc. This
  would be better than relying on Temunei Chol [or similar compilations],
  which (might) stifle critical thinking. Furthermore, an appreciable
  amount of Torah literature is based upon a medieval understanding of
  chemistry and anatomy. A fuller understanding of those thinking
  processes, coupled with a comparative study of [human] biology and the
  basics of modern chemistry, could conceivably open the door to a much
  fuller Torah experience. Indeed, a syllabus could conceivably be drawn up
  that would both benefit the Ben Torah and satisfy the requirements of an
  Examinatory Board.
  3.  Re maths; again, you are right, so far as a basic understanding of
  the sugyos are concerned. But to appreciate maths as a backbone of the
  world?s structure and thus marvel at the???? ????? , to be able to
  extrapolate and apply mathematical theory to deeper areas of the Torah
  [which surely some of them will want to learn], requires a fundamental
  grounding in the subject.



Dovid Rubin



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: Moshe Yehuda Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 9:10:49 AM
To: 'The Avodah Torah Discussion Group'
Cc: 'D Rubin'
Subject: RE: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies

R' Dovid Rubin:
<SNIP>Leaving English aside (G-d forbid they should be able to pick up a
secular book and actually understand it!), the mathematics they're taught
(in which [some of] the amoro'im, ge'onim, rishonim, acharonim were
tremendously proficient) at their last school year [12/13 yr olds!] is at a
level of 8/9 yr olds at best! Biology, which could so help them in their
study of Chullin is [virtually?] non-existent.
---------------


could so help them in their study of Chullin. In fact, this is an argument
that is often made (and has been made by me in the past, and I'm pretty sure
I saw it elsewhere in this thread as well): Learning secular studies is
necessary to help people in their Torah studies.

I'm not convinced anymore that that's true. I think that there's actually
only a very narrow band of Torah studies that are benefitted by a very
narrow band of secular studies. For example, I have a sefer written by a BMG
Rosh Chabura to help in understanding the trigonometry in Eiruvin. The
entire sefer (including the covers and flyleaf) is 20 pages long. Do those
sugyos in Eiruvin justify a full year of math instruction? (Trigonometry was
Math III when I was in high school in Monsey.) Why don't we just give
everyone learning Eiruvin a copy of this sefer, and skip Math III?

Same with biology. I passed my biology Regents. But as I recall, it wasn't
very helpful in learning Chullin. The most help I got was from Sefer Temunei
Chol, and that was enough to understand what was going on. So how is
learning Chullin a justification for spending a year on biology in high
school?

I can go on; my thesis is that there is not much basis to the argument that
a well-rounded education makes much of a difference in understanding Torah.
What would be much more efficient and effective would be a focused companion
sefer to Shas that gives the background on those sugyos that need some
secular knowledge in order to understand them.

KT,
MYG

P.S. Writing the above makes me want to start writing that companion sefer!


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Lets take a step back for a second. There has been a machlokes for
thousands of years (see the Gemara in Berachos 35) whether the ideal is
torah only or for lack of a better phrase torah im derech eretz.

There is no disputing that in the last 200 years the overwhelming majority
of Gedolim have been in the Torah only camp and in the 20th century the
Torah im derech eretz is pretty much RYBS and the followers of R' Hirsch.

I can provide an almost endless list of Gedolim who had zero secular
education and knew kol hatorah kula while on the other hand the list of
Gedolim who had a secular education is much much much smaller.

Your position regarding secular studies while certainly a valid one is
unquestionably the minority opinion and therefore it is ridiculous for you
to simply dismiss the other opinion.
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