Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 40

Tue, 10 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (D Rubin)
• 4. Re: Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and Flatbush) (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Minagim and the Origins of Upsherin (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Sh'mini sh'mini! (Sholom Simon)
• 7. Re: Minhagim and the Origins of Upsherin (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and Flatbush) (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Minagim and the Origins of Upsherin (Zev Sero)

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 08:24:59PM +1000, Isaac Balbin wrote:
: It's arguable. The counter argument is they *are* being Meikel on the
: Rabbinc Issur to use things which 'compete' with bread. For want of
: another term.

The only thing we know for sure is that it included some subset of
grain-like foods and of legumes. Any reason as to why is a post-facto
theory. Multiple exist.

In principle, pasqaning one such shitah is right, and therefore the
rabbanim who made a din must have intended to include the new case is
possible. But not compelled. We often leave a gezeira off where it
originally ended because it's not for us to ban more things than
Chazal did.

All the more so in a case like qitniyos, when it's not a rabbinic issur
but a minhag.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

At 06:05 AM 4/10/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>And Modern Orthodoxy which does learn a complete secular studies 
>curriculum has at least as high a drop out rate then Satmar if not 
>higher and even among those who do remain their level of observance 
>is not necessarily that high. See for example the following study 
><http://listserv.biu.ac.il/cgi-bin/wa?A2=LOOKJED;4e21c035.1801p>http://listserv.biu.ac.il/cgi-bin/wa?A2=LOOKJED;4e21c035.1801p 
>which has as one of it's conclusions the following disturbing statement:
>"All this relates to practice, so that it would be fair to say that, 
>when the dust settles, the graduates of Yeshiva high schools are 
>largely Orthoprax."

I am not claiming that the study of secular subjects is any sort of 
guarantee that one will remain religious.  The reasons for someone to 
give up observance or to water down their observance are complex.

However,  for many reasons it is important to have a basic secular 
education.  One of them is to open up some opportunities to earn a living.

And let me be clear,  I am not talking about a "Harvard"  secular 
education.  But I see no reason why someone born in the US should not 
be able to speak,  read and write English.

I have an Op Ed  piece that will appear in this week's Jewish Press 
on the topic of secular subjects in chassidic yeshivas.  In part it reads

Does it make sense that a Bar Mitzvah boy who is born in America 
cannot read English on an 8th grade level?  Cannot read an 8th grade 
science book and write a report in acceptable English about what he 
has read? Cannot speak English properly?  Knows nothing about the 
history of this country and cannot relate, at least briefly, what 
happened during the Revolutionary War and the civil War?  Has the 
mathematics skills of a 3rd grader at best? Does not have a basic 
knowledge of science and hence has no idea of how, say,  the 
digestive system works?  (BTW,  one way appreciating the wonders of 
HaShem is to study how some of the systems in our bodies work.)  Has 
no real knowledge of how our government works?   I think not.

Parents do not have a blanket right to determine the education of 
their children.  Would you say that a parent has a right to send his 
child to a school that preaches Antisemitism and prejudice? Also, 
based on my experience as an educator for over 50 years,  I have to 
say that parents do not always know what is best for their children 
educationally.  Choosing to enroll one's sons in a school that does 
not give a basic secular education is a very poor choice.  Also, 
having a school that does not give a basic secular education is 
against the law as is clear from my recent Jewish Press article.

Boys have to be equipped with an education that prepares them to earn 
a living to support a family.  How many boys who attend a Hassidic 
yeshiva actually earn a basic high school diploma let alone a Regents diploma?

YL
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It's not only the lack of secular education (that R' Yitschok Levine
refers to) or knowledge to interact with the secular world (that
R. Hirsch z"l is reported to have referred to) that is the problem;
it's the abysmal standard of the education they do receive, the overall
intellectual integrity, and their attitude to anything scientific.


Leaving English aside (G-d forbid they should be able to pick up a
secular book and actually understand it!), the mathematics they're taught
(in which [some of] the amoro'im, ge'onim, rishonim, acharonim were
tremendously proficient) at their last school year [12/13 yr olds!] is
at a level of 8/9 yr olds at best! Biology, which could so help them in
their study of Chullin is [virtually?] non-existent.

As far as i recall, the Munkatche Rebbe [frequently?] visited the Natural
History Museum when he could. There is such a terrific gap in some of
our children's education that it's hard to believe it's not going to be
detrimental in some way to their development.

[I know I'm spouting to the 'converted', but thanks for the opportunity
to at least voice my concerns somewhere.]

Dovid Rubin

At 06:32 AM 4/10/2018, R Micha Berger wrote:
>Similarly, I can't count the number of upsherins I've attended for
>children of Litzvish or Yekkish lineage.

I will just deal with one of the things you raised.

If people knew the origin of upsherin and had the courage to go 
against the crowd,  this practice would end. YL

The following is from  Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz, Minhag Ashkenaz: 
Sources and Roots by Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger, Synopsis of Volumes I-IV.

The German custom to bring a young boy to the synagogue with a wirnpel
(wrapping for t he Torah scroll) has no connection whatsoever to the
practice of the chalaka (the Arabic term for Upsherin) observed by
Sepharadirn and later ad opted by many Chasidirn. Th e custom of holding a
special celebration marking the boy's first haircut developed among these
groups. The celebration takes place at a specific age, usually three. Th e
festivity is customarily held near the gravesite of a tzadik or in a
synagogue. T his custom was unknown in ancient Sephardic and
Ashkenazic communities.

The earliest reports of t he chalaka [upsherin] celebration are found 
in accounts
written by Sepharadim early in the period of the Acharonim. Some three
centuries later, we find the first indications that the custom had made its
way into Chasidic circles. The most important source concerning the
chalaka is the account of the celebration in which the Ari-zal is involved.
The details of this story are somewhat vague, and it is unclear whether the
Ari-zal made a chalaka for his son, or whether the account refers to his
disciple, Rabbi Yonatan Sagish. There is also some question as to whether
the Ari-zal participated in Lag Ba 'omer events in Meron after his
kabalistic insights because the custom to conduct a chalaka on Lag
Ba 'omer runs in opposition to the Ari-zal' s final ruling that forbade hair
cutting during the orner period.

Furthermore, the custom of the chalaka has given rise to some questions as
to the propriety of hair cutting at a gravesite or synagogue, which might
constitute an infringement upon the sanctity of the site. Some have also
questioned the permissibility of haircutting on Lag Ba omer, during bein
ha-rnetzarirn (the three weeks before Tisha B' A v) or during Chol
Ha 'rno 'ed. Yet another concern was the immodest behavior that
occasionally accompanied this event. :Most Sephardic and Chasidic rabbis
applauded, or at least defended the practices observed in their circles,
though there were those who forbade The custom in this manner.

Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik of Brisk (1889-1960) disapproved of
bringing children to rabbis on their third birthday for the chalaka, claiming
that this practice "has no reason or basis." He noted that there are sources
indicating that one should introduce the child to matters of Torah at the age
of three, but none that involve haircutting. Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael
Kanievsky [the "Steipler Ga'on," (1899-1985)] also opposed this practice,
and would send away parents who brought their children to him for the
chalaka haircut.

The tendency among Ashkenazi communities to refrain from this practice
stems, according to one view, from the concern that the chalaka
transgresses the prohibition of imitating pagan practices. Cutting a child's
hair at the age of three was a well-known custom among several nations in
ancient times, and thus observing this practice may constitute an imitation
of pagan ritual. Some, however, dismissed this argument, claiming that to
the contrary, the chalaka perhaps began as an ancient Jewish practice
which was later adopted by the gentiles. There are some older customs,
originating in the times of Chazal and the Ge'onim, such as fasting on Erev
Rosh Hashana and the ceremony of Kapaprot on Erev Yom Kippur which
were opposed by some rabbis since they feared that their origins could be
found in pagan rites. In any event, although some communities accepted
this custom, Ashkenazi communities \yere never aware of such a practice.
They did not receive this tradition from their forebears, and they found no
mention of it in the writings of the Rishonim.

The ancient tradition among Ashkenazi communities was to cut a boy's
hair at a very young age. In fact, during the times of Chazal, parents would
cut an infant's hair not long after birth, and they even permitted cutting a
baby's overgrown hair on Chol Ha 'mo' ed. In the times of the Rishonim,
too, boys' hair in Ashkenaz was cut already within the first several months
after birth. The phenomenon of children with overgrown hair simply did
not exist in Germany, and a boy with overgrown hair would have been
mistaken for a girl.

The custom of chalaka was never accepted in Ashkenazic countries or
other regions in Western Europe, not even among the Sephardic
communities in these areas. The practice earned acceptance in Eastern
Europe among certain Chasidic circles, but only in later generations.
Among other circles, boys' hair was cut when they began speaking, and no
special affair was held to celebrate the event.

..

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On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 09:07:38AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: >Similarly, I can't count the number of upsherins I've attended for
: >children of Litzvish or Yekkish lineage.
: 
: I will just deal with one of the things you raised.

I only raised one thing. You are discussing an example, and not the point.

: If people knew the origin of upsherin and had the courage to go
: against the crowd,  this practice would end.

Which has nothing to do with the general principle of whether the
resettlement of Jewry post-war should or shouldn't evolve into new
minhagei hamaqom, nor the topic I raised -- the claim they actually
are.

Nor the reason why I raised the topic: the idea that minhag avos is only
a stop-gap, a way to manage when in a maqom that has no minhag.

Nor the reason for my post: Your claim that minhag hamaqom only has
meaning if the maqom has loits of minhagim. That it can't be applied
one-off to whatever practice is under discussion.

And if you are correct, what's the threshold of minhagim that unify a
community sufficiently to qualify.

Since this is a shift to a new topic, I changed the subject line
accordingly.

: The following is from  Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz, Minhag Ashkenaz:
: Sources and Roots by Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger, Synopsis of
: Volumes I-IV.

WADR to RBSH, he is mistaken.

: The earliest reports of t he chalaka [upsherin] celebration are
: found in accounts
: written by Sepharadim early in the period of the Acharonim...

It has to be earlier.

Originally, chalaqah was held at the qever of Shemuel haNav on the 43rd
of the omer, his yahrzeit. See teshuvos haRadvaz 2:608.

(This original version of the minhag has its logic; Shemu'el was a nazir,
and he lived in the BHMQ starting at age 3. So you see how he would get
associated with a haircut at age 3. The move to Meron and Lag baOmer
happened when the Ottomans restricted access to the qever in the 1500s.
But that has little to do with upsherin in general, eg on a birthday.)

The Radvaz, R' David b Shelomo ibn Zimra, was among the gerushei Sefarad,
who ended up in Tzefas in 1513 and eventually end up in Egypt where
he was RY (he taught the Shitah Mequbetzes, R' Betzalel Ashkenazi)
and ABD.

So, upsherin was already a practice old enough to get recorded as minhag
by someone who lived through the transition from rishonim to achronim.

:                            The most important source concerning the
: chalaka is the account of the celebration in which the Ari-zal is involved.

What makes this "post important source" if the practice predated the Ari
by generations? Raising questions about a tradition that the Ari practiced it
is a distraction if he isn't the basis of the minhag.

AND, the problems with the story isaren't around upsherin, but around
making a celebration the night of Lag baOmer, again nothing to do with
making one on the child's 3rd birthday. (Unless it too is in the wrong
part of the omer or during the 3 weeks. Issues we already navigate for
bar mitzvah parties that aren't on Shabbos.)

....
: The tendency among Ashkenazi communities to refrain from this practice
: stems, according to one view, from the concern that the chalaka
: transgresses the prohibition of imitating pagan practices. Cutting a child's
: hair at the age of three was a well-known custom among several nations in
: ancient times, and thus observing this practice may constitute an imitation
: of pagan ritual...

All I know is that people invoke a similar Hindu practice. And while
Hindus may wait to age 3 before making a celebratory first haircut,
waiting until 5 or 7 are more common, and not making any ceremony at
all is most common. (Although a girls' only haircut being at 11 months
is most common.) Observant Sikh men never get a haircut. In Mongolia,
between 2-5, girls get their first haricut when they are 3 or 5, boys
when they are 2 or 4. No match. China - 1 month. (They wait until
after the bulk of infant mortality; lehavdil but yet similar to our
considering a child who dies in their first month a neifel.) Poles: a
pre-Xian tradition that survived into the 1700s was 7-10. Ukraininans, 1st
birthday. Polenesians, teens. Yazidi, originally 40 days, now, 7-11 mo.
Interestingly, Moslem boys get their first haircut at 1 week old --
in other words, on the 8th day.

In short -- no culture that wikipedia or google found for me has a special
haircut for 3 yr old boys ceremony. And yet, I turned up much else.

We've seen similar attacks on shlissel challah ('tis the week for that
perrennial) based on a difficult to assert connection to key-with-cross
breads in Xian communities that were nowhere near the areas where shlissel
challah originated -- in either time or space.

And yet, the same people continue dressing up their children in Purim
costumes, despite the similarity to Carnivale -- and both being local
to Italy in origin. Or milchigs on Shevu'os starting in the same region
that already had Wittesmontag on the Monday before the Xian Pentacost.

For that matter, both of those customs are first originated LATER than
chalakah!

...
: The custom of chalaka was never accepted in Ashkenazic countries or
: other regions in Western Europe, not even among the Sephardic
: communities in these areas. The practice earned acceptance in Eastern
: Europe among certain Chasidic circles, but only in later generations.
: Among other circles, boys' hair was cut when they began speaking, and no
: special affair was held to celebrate the event.

Is using the haricut to tell the boy "You're not a baby now, time to start
chinukh in earnest with alef-beis" really so terrible? Nothing will make
that point as deeply as weeks of build up, followed by changing the look
in the mirror.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

> : During a leap year, in ch'l, when Pesach starts on shabbos, we (always?
> : usually?) read from a different parsha eight times.  (I'll leave this is as
> : a trivia question for now).
> 
> There was a saying: Shemoneh 'Shemini' shemeinah. Years like this one
> were considered propitious for a large crop.
> 
> (I think I saw that in a sichah by the LR.)

REMT wrote me off line and noted: "I don't know its source, but I first
heard it when I was a young child." 

He also answered my trivial question, writing: "In a leap year, the
parsha read eight times will always be Acharei Mos. I know of no one
commenting on its significance." 

It just occurs to me that the main event in parshas Acharei Mos occurred
on the same day as the events in parshas Shemini. 

Kol tuv! 

-- Sholom
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At 11:21 AM 4/10/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>Since this is a shift to a new topic, I changed the subject line
>accordingly.
>
>: The following is from  Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz, Minhag Ashkenaz:
>: Sources and Roots by Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger, Synopsis of
>: Volumes I-IV.
>
>WADR to RBSH, he is mistaken.

It was not RSRH who wrote this,  but Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger 
who has spent much time investigating minhagim.


>: The earliest reports of t he chalaka [upsherin] celebration are
>: found in accounts
>: written by Sepharadim early in the period of the Acharonim...
>
>It has to be earlier.

Again you are questioning Rabbi Hamburger.  I suggest you contact him 
about this and the rest of your post.


YL
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On 10/04/18 09:07, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 06:32 AM 4/10/2018, R Micha Berger wrote:
>> Similarly, I can't count the number of upsherins I've attended for
>> children of Litzvish or Yekkish lineage.
> 
> I will just deal with one of the things you raised.
> 
> If people knew the origin of upsherin and had the courage to go against 
> the crowd,? this practice would end. YL

That is simply not true.  The Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim practised 
it, and that is more than enough for most people.  That not everyone did 
it is irrelevant; very few practices had unanimous support.  The BeShT 
was far greater than the sources you cite, and many more people follow 
him today than follow those people, so they would have no reason to change.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 10/04/18 11:21, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> (This original version of the minhag has its logic; Shemu'el was a nazir,
> and he lived in the BHMQ starting at age 3. So you see how he would get
> associated with a haircut at age 3.

Shmuel moved in to the mishkan at the age of two, not three.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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