Volume 36: Number 39
Tue, 10 Apr 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
On Mon, Apr 09, 2018 at 06:12:48PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: >Unless one might argue that the study warps what one learned and one's
: >ability to judge the quality of one's learning.
:
: Are you implying that the GRA's extensive secular education "warped"
: is learning? I hope not.
I am implying that it is valid for the chassidim whose school you are
critiquing to believe so.
And yes, they probably believe that the Gra's hisnagdus was an error caused
by his exposure to the wrong set of ideas. They *certainly* believe that of
RYBS. (Or at least did in his lifetime. I see an "acharei mos - qedushim"
effect currently going on with RYBS's memory.)
As I wrote, I am defending the position in an eilu va'eilu sense. It is
not a position to which I personally subscribe, nor could subscribe.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 9th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507 most appropriate?
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Message: 2
From: Rabbi Meir Rabi
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 16:17:53 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts - MInhag but absolutely no foundation in
My Gebrochts postings have been to clarify one point - it is wrong to claim
that Gebrochts is Halachically mandated or justified and points to anything
other than a desire to honour a family/group/sect tradition.
and I do thank RIB for his query
to which the answer is a firm NO -
my observation - [if you dont wish to eat Gebrochts because your parents
etc did not -- then enjoy Pesach [if Pesach can be enjoyed w/o Kneidlach]
but if you are concerned about Halacha -- then eat Kneidlach and enjoy
Pesach] -
is in no manner a violation of, "one should not be MAZNIACH [ridicule]
those who have this Chumra" IF they do not eat Gebrochts FOR THE RIGHT
REASON i.e. a desire to honour a family/group/sect tradition
BTW - I do not see this in the ChCHayim, pity RIB did not provide sourcing
But it is in the ShTeshuvah [460:2]
- Nevertheless those who wish to sanctify themselves by refraining from
that which is permitted - soaked and cooked Matza, even that which has been
[baked hard] and ground [again referring to the corrected practice of
making Matza meal from thinner hard baked Matza and NOT from thicker soft
Matza which was grated on a Rib Ayzen, and at greater risk of being
underbaked and Chametz] - should not be ridiculed.
RIB has not suggested any argument to associate not eating garlic during
Pesach with Gebrochts, and I have no idea what makes one Chumra IN LINE
with other Chumras.
Neither do I understand the significance to our discussion/disagreement.
We both urge those who do not wish to eat Gebrochts/Garlic etc because
their parents etc did not - to keep their tradition. However, the natural
corollary is - that IF you DO NOT have such a custom - then eat them and
enjoy Pesach because there is no legitimate Halachic imperative.
Also, the reference to Keneidelach being an important contribution to Oneg
Yom Tov is not of my making - it comes from great and highly respected
Poskim.
It is also not correct to characterise this Minhag as being concerned with
the infinitesimal - because that is the Halacha - a speck of flour can
become Chametz and ruin your entire Pesach. Indeed this was the very point
I am making - there is no substance in Halacha to support this concern - if
there was it would be Halacha.
And finally - If anything, the urging that we not be Mazniach, demonstrates
that Halacha has no concerns about this issue. We ought to however,
nevertheless, not ridicule.
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Message: 3
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 11:37:42 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
"
Are you implying that the GRA's extensive secular education
"warped" is learning? I hope not.
Rav Shimon Schwab never finished the 9th grade, but he had extensive
secular knowledge that he acquired on his own. Are you implying that
Rav Schwab's learning was "warped" because of his extensive secular
knowledge? I hope not.
And they there is Rav Y. Soloveichik who had a Ph d in philosophy
which the GRA said was a waste of time to study. Are you
implying that his learning was "warped."
I could go on with others.
On the contrary, according to the GRA one's learning is deficient if
one does not have secular knowledge."
You missed the point. It is a concern that the secular learning will
affect the person there can certainly be exceptions. It is a question
of cost/benefit for the masses.
Will the masses benefit more from learning secular studies or be
harmed by the influence. The Chassidic approach is that the harm is
greater then benefit. The people you listed
were certainly exceptions but exceptions do not make the rule.
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Message: 4
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 05:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
At 04:37 AM 4/10/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>You missed the point. It is a concern that the secular learning will
>affect the person there can certainly be exceptions. It is a
>question of cost/benefit for the masses.
>
>Will the masses benefit more from learning secular studies or be
>harmed by the influence. The Chassidic approach is that the harm is
>greater then benefit. The people you listed
>
>were certainly exceptions but exceptions do not make the rule.
When Rabbi S. R. Hirsch was asked about the dangers of teaching
secular studies, he replied, (I do not have the exact reply, so I
am paraphrasing..) "True some will be led astray by studying secular
subjects, but how many more are led astray by the fact that they did
not study secular subjects and are not prepared to deal with the world?"
I have been told that Satmar is experiencing considerable defections
from observance by some of its youth. I have been told that the same
is true of Chabad. I have no data to back up these assertions.
YL
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Message: 5
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 13:05:03 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
wrote:
>
> When Rabbi S. R. Hirsch was asked about the dangers of teaching secular
> studies, he replied, (I do not have the exact reply, so I am
> paraphrasing..) "True some will be led astray by studying secular
> subjects, but how many more are led astray by the fact that they did not
> study secular subjects and are not prepared to deal with the world?"
>
> I have been told that Satmar is experiencing considerable defections from
> observance by some of its youth. I have been told that the same is true of
> Chabad. I have no data to back up these assertions.
>
> YL
>
> And Modern Orthodoxy which does learn a complete secular studies
curriculum has at least as high a drop out rate then Satmar if not higher
and even among those who do remain their level of observance is not
necessarily that high. See for example the following study
http://listserv.biu.ac.il/cgi-bin/wa?A2=LOOKJED;4e21c035.1801p which has as
one of it's conclusions the following disturbing statement:
"All this relates to practice, so that it would be fair to say that, when
the dust settles, the graduates of Yeshiva high schools are largely
Orthoprax."
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Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 09:16:59 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects
Will those who are against the teaching of secular subjects simply ignore what
R. Yhonason Eybeschutz wrote in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science, pages 24-25)?
For all the sciences are ?condiments? and are necessary for our Torah, such
as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and
includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very
essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah
and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the
Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics]
is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are
used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary
for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests;
furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with
examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene,
to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The
science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to
know the paths of the constellation
s and to
sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science
of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of
the Niddah whether it is pure or impureand how much more is it necessary
when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow
was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what
disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the
power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we
may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and
chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the
tabernacle, etc.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 06:32:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:31:27AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:> Is that a common interperation of minhag hamaqom -- that there be
:> a common practice in all things? I understood minhag hamaqom to
:> be designated practive by practice.
: Otherwise the concept of Minhag Ha Makom is meaningless....
Again, why? It is meaningful to say, "here, the minhag hamaqom is to say
"umoried hageshem", not "gashem", without making reference to anything
else the qeillah might do. Why do we need a context of a qehillah that
has many such rules rather than a few? And how many?
: Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz
: Yisroel, including some gedolim. However, some do
: it betzinoh so it is not so well known.
You misspelled, "a tiny percentage".
: One such godol is the Erlauer Rebbe. You can go
: in his beis medrash and see him with tefillin. He
: keeps the minhogim of his zeide, the Chasam
: Sofer, to wear tefillin on chol hamoed and daven nusach Ashkenaz.
One may argue that the Erlau community has their own minhag, and their
beis medrash it's own minhag hamaqom.
But that raises questions of how one defines "maqom" that I don't know how
to answer.
....
: Bekitzur, Al titosh toras imecho, keep on
: following your minhog and Al yisbayeish., as the
: Rama says in beginning of Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim.
Minhag avos is inferior to minhag hamaqom. In fact, we have had a hard time
finding its basis.
The best I can come up with is that minhag avos means that in the absence
of a minhag hamaqom in your current location, you should follow the minhag
hamaqom of your prior location even if that means the location of your
avos.
:> For other things? Give it time. How long did it take Jews from Provence,
:> Italy and elsewhere to congeal into a single minhag Ashkenaz?
: On the contrary, I doubt that the Chassidim will
: ever eat Gebrokts on Pesach, the Sephardim will
: stop eating kitnyos, and the non-Chassidic world
: will stop eating Gebrokts on Pesach.
And yet nowadays Sepharadim make an Ashkenazi qutzo shel yud, to be
yotzei lekhos hadei'os. Yekkes and Litvaks eat glatt out of necessity
(go find reliable non-glatt), but how many would eat that piece of
non-glatt if they found a reliable hekhsher for it?
Similarly, I can't count the number of upsherins I've attended for
children of Litzvish or Yekkish lineage.
The choilam is far broader in the US than its ancestry; and in other
communities, tav-lessness caught on.
How many non-Morrocans in Israel celebrate Mimouna nowadays? It seems from
the media, this minhag is spreading. (I think it would be a beautiful
thing for "misht-night" communities to adopt. After a week of not being
guests, make a point of sharing food and showing it had nothing to do
with a lack of friendship.)
I see lines coalescing. These things take centuries, and accelerate as
people who remember pre-migration life pass away. We just begun.
I think it is less that a Minhag America can't emerge than the mashiach
won't give it the time necesssary to emerge. And Minhag EY may go back
to being by sheivet and nachalah, but in any case its evolution will be
radically changed by the rapid influx of the rest of Kelal Yisrael.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 06:03:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sh'mini sh'mini!
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 12:37:30PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: During a leap year, in ch'l, when Pesach starts on shabbos, we (always?
: usually?) read from a different parsha eight times. (I'll leave this is as
: a trivia question for now).
There was a saying: Shemoneh 'Shemini' shemeinah. Years like this one
were considered propitious for a large crop.
(I think I saw that in a sichah by the LR.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 06:12:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eating before Biur Chometz
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 07:50:13AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: On Erev Pesach morning, why is it that we are allowed to eat before Biur
: Chametz? What makes this mitzva different from so many other mitzvos, where
: we cannot eat until doing rhe required act?
When the issur de'oraisa begins is a machloqes tannaim (RH 28a-b): Rabbi
Yehudah holds starting from chatzos, R Meir - from sheqi'ah. (Does the
issur start from when the non-qorban <grin> could be shechted, or when
it could be eaten?) The Rambam in Chameitz uMatzah 1:8 pasqens chatzos,
as do we when we make the zeman 1 hour before chatzos (rather than 1
hour before sheqi'ah).
MiDerabbanan, it's pushed earlier, and that's the safety margin. But I
don't think that's enough to make it a morning mitzvah that it must be
done first thing.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 06:19:33 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says
On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 02:15:47PM +1000, Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
: Postscript: Is anyone concerned about the Kulos in our day, where they
: essentially dismiss the Maaris Ayin concern, and make pseudo bread and
: pseudo bread products? The fashionable Pesach retreats and cruises are
: quite good (I'm told) at serving up 'eggs on toast' in the morning, or a
: "hot dog roll".
It's not a qulah, it's a reluctance to extend a minhag our ancestors made,
even though one of the reasons suggested post-facto for it would apply.
There is no special pesaq by which this is the only way Pesachdik beigels
would be muttar. Rather the lack of invention of a new issur.
Like not declaring quinoa to be qitniyos.
And unlike declating peanuts to be. (Which some of Eastern Europe did,
and as RMF attests, some didn't.) For that matter, is there anyone whose
ancestors had the minhag of qitniyos but didn't include corn when it
was brought over from the New World?
Since minhag is by definition informal and mimetic, what happens to
catch on or not doesn't trouble me. Boils down to a qasheh oif a masseh.
(You can't ask a "question on a story"; how it happened is how it
happened, unreasonalbe or not.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 05:59:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] PESACH -- AFTER 400 YEARS GD'S IN A HURRY TO
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 01:28:48PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: We begin the Seder with Matza being a reminder of our suffering -- but we
: conclude it with a new perspective -- Matza reminds us of how quickly Gd
: took us out of Egypt.
Actually, that's the end of Maggid, not the end of the seder.
Later than that in the seder, Hillel reminds us of a third aspect of
matzah -- al matzos umorerim yokhluhu. Not that of slavery, nor of
leaving, but of the midnight in between, and every Pesach thereafter.
There is a fourth aspect: Lechom oni -- she'onim alav devarim
harbei. Rashi takes this idea so seriously that he holds you're not
yotzei the mitzvah with matzah eaten before Maggid. Matzah that didn't
have the haggadah is not lechem oni.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Isaac Balbin
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:24:59 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says
On Apr 10, 2018 at 8:19 pm, <Micha Berger (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org)> wrote:
> It's not a qulah, it's a reluctance to extend a minhag our ancestors made,
> even though one of the reasons suggested post-facto for it would apply.
> There is no special pesaq by which this is the only way Pesachdik beigels
> would be muttar. Rather the lack of invention of a new issur.
It's arguable. The counter argument is they *are* being Meikel on the
Rabbinc Issur to use things which 'compete' with bread. For want of
another term.
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