Volume 36: Number 35
Fri, 30 Mar 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:16:54 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Preparing Foods on the 7th Day of Pesach for Shabbos
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. When preparing for Shabbos on the seventh day of Pesach, the following
question may arise: May one who eats only Shmurah Matzah on the first seven
days of Pesach, but eats non-Shmurah Matzah on the eighth day, cook and
bake for Shabbos using non-Shmurah Matzah? Additionally, many people who do
not eat gebrochts (matzah or matzah meal which has come in contact with
liquids) during Pesach, eat gebrochts on the eighth day. Can one cook food
that is gebrochts on Friday, which is the seventh day of Pesach?
A. At first glance it would seem that this is not permitted. The Rama
(Orach Chaim 527:20) writes that one who is fasting on Yom Tov (which is
permitted under certain conditions) may not cook for Shabbos utilizing an
Eruv Tavshilin, since he cannot eat the food on Friday. Similarly, it would
seem that one who only eats Shmurah Matzah should not be permitted to cook
or bake using non-Shmura Matzah, since he cannot eat the food on Friday.
However, Maharasham (Ha'aros, OC 527) rules that it is permitted. He bases
his ruling on a related ruling of the Magen Avrohom (OC 559:13). The Magen
Avrohom permits baking dough that is stuck in the cracks of a utensil on
Yom Tov, to prevent it from turning into Chametz, even though it is
forbidden to eat this dough on Pesach, out of concern that it did not bake
completely. The Magen Avrohom explains that since according to the letter
of the law, it is permitted to eat the dough, and it is prohibited only as
a chumra (stringency), one may bake it on Yom Tov. The Maharsham writes
that the same applies here. Since one is permitted to eat non-Shmurah
Matzah all the days of Pesach, and eating Shmurah Matzah is only a chumra,
there is no problem with cooking non-Shmurah Matzah on Yom Tov.
The same justification would apply to allow cooking gebrochts on the 7th day of Pesach (see Chazon Ish O.C. 49:15).
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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 15:17:32 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] An Eruv Tavshilin Primer
Please see
https://goo.gl/SaNz9N
YL
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Message: 3
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 07:08:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Gebrokts
At 12:07 AM 3/29/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>Welcome to the world of minhag. It is called the human element, that
>part of the halachic world where we add our input, our flavor, that
>element of "je ne sais quoi".
>
>The Rambam writes clearly that "minhag can forbid something that is
>permitted". This is one, fairly minor, example of that idea.
I can see forbidding something that is permitted, but not permitting
something that is forbidden.
If those who do not eat Gebrokts are doing it, because they are
concerned about chometz, then how can making Gebrokts be permitted
on any of the first 7 days of Pesach, when the issur of chometz is
D'Oraisa? How can making Gebrokts on the 7th day of Pesach be
permitted, even if one might have a guest show up this year on
Friday afternoon who eats Gebrokts. According to those who do not
eat Gebrokts, one is dealing with a possible issur.
YL
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:26:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 03:04:02PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Please see the discussions at
: https://goo.gl/1PYXP4
:
: One comment is
:
: Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel, including some gedolim. However, some do it betzinoh so it is not so well known.
Three communities comprised the core of the Yishuva haYashan --
Sepharadim, Chabad and Talmidei haGra. Like most practices that all
three share, a lack of tefillin on ch"m thereby becam minhag EY.
They do it betzin'ah because violating minhag hamaqom is very difficult.
Like an Israeli in chu"l on YT sheini shel golios.
: One such godol is the Erlau'er Rebbe...
Not betzin'ah. Also, some of the KAJ community.
But really, a miuta demiuta. This is just another case of others having a
machloqes that differs from yours, and you championing one side rather than
accepting nahara nahara upashteih.
The Gra cites two sources: The Zohar (Shir haShirim daf 8) and a Behag
that the AhS (OC 31:4) notes isn't in our edition. And RMF (IM OC 5:24.7)
says that the Gra wasn't basing his pesaq on those two sources as much
as their being no ground to permit misvara.
The Rama (31:2) does obligate BUT with misgivings. He says both one
should make the berakhah quietly and that one should not make a berakhah
at all. The Taz notes the contradiction. But either justify my saying
"with misgivings".
The Behag carries such weight in Ashkenazi pesaq, that it is unsurprising
that not all Ashkenazim hold like the Rama on this.
As for me, I can honestly say there will be no tefillin on my left arm
this ch"m. <grin>
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:02:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Gebrokts
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 07:08:17AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: I can see forbidding something that is permitted, but not permitting
: something that is forbidden.
: If those who do not eat Gebrokts are doing it, because they are
: concerned about chometz, then how can making Gebrokts be permitted
: on any of the first 7 days of Pesach...
Um, it's only assur because of minhag. Everyone agrees that in terms of
safeiq, it would be mutar. That's why it's lifnim mishuras hadin and
minhag.
So no one is permitting something prohibited by curtailing the minhag on
day 7. They are prohibiting less of the permitted. Just as you too would
make gebrochts on the last day.
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 01:16:54PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
...
:> However, Maharasham (Ha'aros, OC 527) rules that it is permitted. He
:> bases his ruling on a related ruling of the Magen Avrohom (OC 559:13). The
:> Magen Avrohom permits baking dough that is stuck in the cracks of a
:> utensil on Yom Tov, to prevent it from turning into Chametz, even though
:> it is forbidden to eat this dough on Pesach, out of concern that it did
:> not bake completely....
:> The same justification would apply to allow cooking gebrochts on the
:> 7th day of Pesach (see Chazon Ish O.C. 49:15).
Only in terms of cooking and hachanah. It still requires saying that
gebrochts is only an issue of eating, the issur kareis, and not bal
yeira'eh.
Otherwise, there would be a lack of consistency allowing bal yeira'h
on day 7 because one may eat gebrochts when chameitz is derabbanan,
on day 8.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
PS: I want to voice my disappointment with this year's incarnation of the
gebrochts-bashing discussion. Usually we cover more of prior iterations
before we start repeating things already said in this one.
--
Micha Berger Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 17:32:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
At 12:26 PM 3/29/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>They do it betzin'ah because violating minhag hamaqom is very difficult.
I recall hearing a talk by Rabbi Shlomo Hamburger where he insisted
that there is no minhag ha Makom in EY. He said within 10 blocks of
here there are many shuls davening many different Nuschos. Hence
there is no minhag ha Makom in EY.
I add that in EY on Pesach one has Sephardim eating kitniyos and
rice, Chassidim not eating Gebrokts, and the non-Chassidic world
eating Gebrokts but not eating kitniyos. Where is the minhag ha
Makom regarding this?
EY is collage of many different customs of Jews from all over the
world. I think that Rabbi Hamburger is correct when he says there is
no minhag Ha Makom in EY.
Regarding tefillin, the Sephardim and the Talmidim of the GRA did
not put on tefillin on Chol Moed before they came to EY and so
continued to do this when they came to EY. I do not understand why
Ashkenazim who put on tefillin on Chol Moed before they came to EY
stopped doing this when they came to EY.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:57:44 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Not Eating Gebrochts is a Distortion of Halacha and
An adopted stringency mistakenly believed to be the opinion of ones Rabbi,
does not require Hataras Neder (Reb Moshe's Piskei Halacha, Rishumei Aharon
by Yair Hoffman p.60)
from the archives -
From R/Prof Y Levine:
A friend of mine who did not eat gebrokts and who was a close talmud of Rav
Tuvia Goldstein , Z"L, a well-know halachic expert here in the US, asked
Reb Tuvia about changing this and eating gebrokts. Reb Tuvia replied,
"Mutar Loch, Mutar Loch, Mutar Loch." and that was it!
And quoting
http://torasaba.blogspot.com/2015/03/of-gebrokts-and-kitniyos.html he wrote:
The Sefer Ashrei Haish quotes Rav Elyashuv zt"l who says that one who has
the Minhag of not eating Gebrokts may change his Minhag to eating Gebrokts.
It is preferable to make Hatoros Nedarim but not necessary. One may rely on
the Hataras Nedarim made on Erev Rosh Hashana.
Reb Elyashuv holds the original Chumra of Gebrokts started when Matzohs
were thick
= = = = = =
It is claimed that Gebrochts is FOUNDED in the Teshuvos of important Poskim
this is untrue [it is however, found there, perhaps they meant to say
foundered]
their recommendations were for a particular problem - as was clearly
explained earlier - of Matza meal made from soft Matza that was notoriously
under-baked, and as R Micha pointed out, was not a problem created when the
Matza and water were combined during Pesach
but was an unacceptably high risk of already being Chametz
That problem was corrected
and Matza Balls were welcomed back even by those who chose not to eat foods
made with suspect Matza meal
If there is a vestige of this today, it is not adding matza to soup or
coffee
it wold be with eating Matza meal cake
Suggesting that Gebrochts is in some way similar to Kitniyos, the ban on
egg matzah, and eating or not eating machine matzos
is the disingenuous fantasy of those who wish to preserve the practice at
any cost MHKBHBlessThem
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:34:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tzav ??? In Gratitude for the Miracle of Nature
On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 08:58:38PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: The Sefer HaChinuch writes that the miracles Hashem does are always
: covered with a certain degree of 'teva', natural normality. The gematria
: of God's name "Elohim" is 86. "Hateva" which means nature also equals
: 86....
Actually, the inclusion of the "ha-" is question begging.
: we get to know God. This is a kabbalistic and mystical avenue through
: approaching God in a natural way...
Rationalists can get in on it too. There is more Divine Wisdom in a
universe which was set up so perfeclty that its Maker does not have to
intervene and interrupt its normal operation. A number of rishonim
grapple with "Why miracles?" in commentaries to the first parshios
to seifer Shemos.
Typical answers are to deny that miracles differ from nature (Ramban),
in that both are Divine Action and both were written into creation during
the initial week. Or that free will plus reward-and-punishment requires
responses rather than a system.
Jumping ahead in history, the Maharal says that miracles follow their own
laws, and earning a miracle is a matter of which set of laws you live in.
(More at <http://www.aishdas.org/mesukim/5764/beshalach.pdf> and
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/rav-dessler-on-reality-and-perception>.)
: Even while splitting the Sea to allow
: the Children of Israel to escape the Egyptians, there was a strong eastern
: wind blowing (the natural component). So, too, in regard to the altar,
: we are commanded to ignite our own flame in order to camouflage the
: incredible miracle of the fire descending from the heavens, thus allowing
: nature to be included in the awesome event. Different people experiencing
: the same occurrence will walk away with different understandings of what
: has transpired.
However, our own flame is camouflage. The strong east wind is that AND
also reduces the gap in nature that the miracle has to violate.
: There is a beautiful illustration of this idea. Imagine a child born
: in the Midbar ... Joshua takes some seeds and
: places them into the earth -- a seeming waste of the scant food they still
: had. If one were to look into the ground and see the seeds they would
: appear to be disintegrating and, at that point, appear totally useless. A
: few days later, when food begins to grow from the ground, this person,
: with wide eyed amazement, would scream IT'S A MIRACLE!!! Food from the
: ground -- how unnatural! Clearly the wondrous Hand of Hashem is at work!
That truly is a beautiful illustration.
And sounds a lot like the above Maharal.
: 2) Among the sacrifices mentioned in this weeks parsha is the Thanksgiving
: Offering. The Medrash tells us that in the future all the sacrifices
: will be nullified, except the Thanksgiving Offering -- for there is
: always need to give thanks.
Yeah, but I never know what to do with medrashim like that. Because we
also believe that the Torah won't change. I mean, it could mean that
chatas and asham will simply become moot or near moot, as we change our
relationship to sinning. But shelamim? "Qorban" Pesach? Olah? Tamid?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive.
mi...@aishdas.org "I want to do it." - is weak.
http://www.aishdas.org "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:40:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The not-Korban Pesach
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 01:25:43AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: It has come to me attention recently that the Torah never refers to
: the Pesach as a Korban...
: My question is this: Whatever reason it was, why the Torah avoided
: using that word in this context ... why did Chazal feel differently?
Maybe it is part of a bigger language question. The Torah's "Pesach"
is the 14th of Nissan; the next 7 days is "Chag haMatzos".
Chazal shifted the wording because our name for yamim tovim reflect what
He did for us, whereas the Torah calls it by a name that reflects what
of the YT is about us doing for Him.
And then, when P)esach no longer refers to the time when the qorban
is brought... perhaps that's why they felt it needed more explicit
disambiguation.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Pablo Picasso
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Message: 10
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 06:10:10 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
Do you really think that an Ashkenazi person who goes to a Sefardi beit
knesset can pray Nusach Ashkenaz from the amud if the kehilla is maqpid
on their nusasch? Can he claim "There's no minhag"? Same with "Can an
Ashkenazi person just walk away from the amud in his beit knesset when
he gets to Ein Kelokeinu"?
On 3/29/2018 11:32 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> EY is collage of many different customs of Jews from all over the
> world. I think that Rabbi Hamburger is correct when he says there is
> no minhag Ha Makom in EY.
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Message: 11
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:21:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
At 12:10 AM 3/30/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>Do you really think that an Ashkenazi person who goes to a Sefardi
>beit knesset can pray Nusach Ashkenaz from the amud if the kehilla
>is maqpid on their nusasch? Can he claim "There's no minhag"? Same
>with "Can an Ashkenazi person just walk away from the amud in his
>beit knesset when he gets to Ein Kelokeinu"?
No, he has to daven the Nusach of the shul or not daven for the Amud.
I have seen a Chabadnic daven Maariv for the Amud at a
place which says Baruch HaShem l'olam .. and not say the bracha at
the end of this piece. When I chastised the fellow for this, he
replied, "Well, I won't daven Maariv for the Amud here again."
YL
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:52:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 05:32:39PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: I recall hearing a talk by Rabbi Shlomo Hamburger where he insisted
: that there is no minhag ha Makom in EY. He said within 10 blocks of
: here there are many shuls davening many different Nuschos. Hence
: there is no minhag ha Makom in EY.
Is that a common interperation of minhag hamaqom -- that there be
a common practice in all things? I understood minhag hamaqom to
be designated practive by practice.
On the topic of tefillin on ch"m, there is enough consensus in EY
not to wear tham, that for this one topic there is a minhag hamaqom.
For other things? Give it time. How long did it take Jews from Provence,
Italy and elsewhere to congeal into a single minhag Ashkenaz?
:-)|,|ii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507 to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:16:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tzav ??? In Gratitude for the Miracle of Nature
On 29/03/18 16:34, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : 2) Among the sacrifices mentioned in this weeks parsha is the Thanksgiving
> : Offering. The Medrash tells us that in the future all the sacrifices
> : will be nullified, except the Thanksgiving Offering -- for there is
> : always need to give thanks.
>
> Yeah, but I never know what to do with medrashim like that. Because we
> also believe that the Torah won't change. I mean, it could mean that
> chatas and asham will simply become moot or near moot, as we change our
> relationship to sinning. But shelamim? "Qorban" Pesach? Olah? Tamid?
The parallel maamar Chazal, that all the holidays will be nullified
except Purim, is I think generally taken to mean that the weekdays will
have the same kedusha as yomtov, so yomtov will no longer be special,
except for Purim. So we could say something similar here, that the
special kedusha that make korbanos so important in the first two BHMK
will no longer stand out, and they won't evoke the feelings that they
used to, except for Todah. Cf RAYK's widely misunderstood take on
"ve'orvoh laH' *minchas* Yehuda", that in the future instead of the
flour part of a korban being tafel to the animal part it will be reversed.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 14
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 04:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Not Eating Gebrochts is a Distortion of Halacha
On 29/03/18 19:57, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> It is claimed that Gebrochts is FOUNDED in the Teshuvos of important Poskim
> this is untrue [it is however, found there, perhaps they meant to say
> foundered]
It is founded in the Alter Rebbe's teshuvah. That is why chassidim
universally adopted this chumra while most others didn't.
> their recommendations were for a particular problem - as was clearly
> explained earlier - of Matza meal made from soft Matza that was
> notoriously under-baked, and as R Micha pointed out, was not a problem
> created when the Matza and water were combined during Pesach
> but was an unacceptably high risk of already being Chametz
That is *not* what he writes in the teshuvah. He writes that it's a
problem that only arose about 20 years earlier, due to the innovation of
making the matzos quickly and not spending time kneading thoroughly.
An innovation he completely endorses, but says it has one unintended
negative consequence, which al pi din is too slight to worry about, but
because of the extra caution of Pesach one should. He is *not* talking
about special matzos but about the normal ones that are for eating, and
he's *not* worried that they may already be chometz.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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