Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 34

Thu, 29 Mar 2018

• 1. Re: Chas VeShalom! - Gebrokts is not a Hiddur Mitzvah (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Gebrokts on the 8th Day (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Gebrokts on the 8th Day (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Gebrokts (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Sh'mini sh'mini! (Sholom Simon)
• 6. Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz Volume Five Is Here! (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] Gebrokts (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Fake Matza - Hard Thin Matza is not a Baked Product ... it is not Bread = it is not Matza (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. PESACH ? AFTER 400 YEARS GD?S IN A HURRY TO REDEEM US? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Gebrokts (Ben Waxman)
• 12. The not-Korban Pesach (Akiva Miller)
• 13. Tefilin On Chol hamoed In Eretz Yisroel (and Flatbush) (Professor L. Levine)

On 27/03/18 17:42, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Gebrokts is not a Hiddur Mitzvah

No, it's a chumra.

> It does not require revocation as if it were a vow or anything like a vow

It certainly does, just like every chumra

> As Rav Moshe wrote - those who practised not eating Gebrokts may choose 
> to eat Gebrokts without compunction if they feel so inclined.

Where did he write this?

> It is a practise that has no foundation in Halacha

It's not *required* by halacha, of course, but it is founded in the
teshuvos of the important poskim who recommended it, on strictly
halachic grounds.  Ir is as founded in halacha as kitniyos, the ban
on egg matzah, and the various communities' respective insistence on
either eating or not eating machine matzos (*both* these contradictory
practices are founded in halacha).

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 01:17:56PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: All cooking on Friday is ostensibly for a hypothetical unexpected
: guest (or a horde of ravenous bochurim) who might show up right
: before shkiah.  Since we don't know this person's identity in
: advance, perhaps he will not be a chossid, and will eat the gebrokts
: that have been prepared.  He might also be Sefardi, so it seems to
: me that in EY one may cook kitniyos on Shevi'i shel Pesach, to be
: eaten, if our hypothetical guest is a no-show, at the meals of
: Shabbos Motzo'ei Pesach.

However, an Ashkenazi is permitted to own qitniyos.

A chassid is avoiding gebrochts for the sake of avoiding a small risk of
producing chameitz. And if chameitz were produced, the chassid wouldn't
be allowed to own it. The minhag itself should include not having the
result in your posession on day 7.

So you answered why it's not a hakhanah issue, but is that enough?

(Not that gebrochts observer = chassid really maps.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

.

R' Yitzchok Levine asked:
> If Gebrokts are a possible problem in other years on the first
> 7 days of Pesach,  then why aren't they a problems this year
> on the 7th day of Pesach?

R' Zev Sero answered as regards Eiruv Tavshilin, but I suspect that
RYL's question is from the chometz perspective. In other words, I
think RYL is asking, "The 7th day is d'Oraisa! How can they be cooking
gebrokts when chometz is d'Oraisa?"

My answer is: Yes, they are cooking it, but they're not *eating* it.
The chiyuv karays is only on eating chometz, not on owning it. From
that perspective, it is not so terrible to be cooking gebrokts on a
day when chometz is d'Oraisa, as long as they are careful to avoid
eating it.

On the other hand, if that logic is correct, then it would be
preferable to do the cooking on Chol Hamoed, rather than rely on
Hilchos Eruv Tavshilin. Hmmm... even with Eruv Tavshilin, it is
preferable to cook before Yom Tov, unless you davka want/need the food
to be fresh-tasting. So we must be talking about those sorts of
foods/situations, and that's why they are putting it off until Yom
Tov.

Another reason to delay (rather than cook it on Chol Hamoed) is to
avoid the michshol of having the gebrokts around when one might eat
it.

I can easily imagine some people who avoid this whole mess by not
cooking any gebrokts in advance at all, and simply put some matza into
their Friday night chicken soup.

Akiva Miller

At 03:53 PM 3/27/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 08:06:06PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Areivim wrote:
>: This year the 8th day is Shabbos,  so one cannot prepare the
>: Gebrokts on the 8th day.  A chassidic friend of mine said that this
>: year one is allowed to prepare Gebrokts during the afternoon of the
>: 7th day,  i.e. Friday afternoon.  I told him that I cannot
>: understand this. If having Gebrokts on the first 7 days of Pesach is
>: not allowed, then how can one prepare it this year on the 7th day.
>
>So who is it now who can't separate minhag from din on this?

See
<http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/halacha/Volume_7_Issue_4.pdf>http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/halacha/Volume_7_Issue_4.pdf

  in particular  page 7 and footnotes?

According to some one is not even allowed to make Gebrokts during Chol Moed.

YL


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During mincha on shabbos, it occurred to me that this is a year where we
will leyn from parshas sh'mini eight times.  This occurs only in ch'l, and
only when Pesach starts on shabbos.

During a leap year, in ch'l, when Pesach starts on shabbos, we (always?
usually?) read from a different parsha eight times.  (I'll leave this is as
a trivia question for now).

-- Sholom
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Please see

https://goo.gl/UtXj1C


After a long hiatus, ?"? we have just merited the release of a new chelek
of ???? ???? ?????, volume five in the series. The last previous new volume
to be published appeared over ten years ago.


<Snip>


Therefore it is a now with great ???? (joy) that the new volume, which is
devoted to the topic of wearing tefillin on chol hamoed, is warmly
welcomed.<http://www.moreshesashkenaz.org/en/shorshei/94-shorshei-5>


See the above URL for more.


YL
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There are apparently many variations on not
eating Gebrokts.  I have heard of people who do
not eat Gebrokts on the first two days of
Pesach,  but do eat Gebrokts the rest of
Pesach.  And I have heard of people who do not
eat Gebrokts the entire Pesach including the 8th day.

Do not ask me to justify or explain any of these
practices.  From my standpoint the entire concept
of not eating Gebrokts makes no sense.

YL

At 01:24 PM 3/28/2018, Sholom Simon wrote:


 >I don't get that.?  My (limited) understand of
 >the minhag is that one eats it only on the 8th
 >day -- so why would you make it on chol hamoed,
 >which is the 6th day??  It seems to me, that the
 >heter makes more sense if one makes an eruv
 >tavshilin and then makes it on the 7th day (for eating on the 8th day).
 >
 >-- Sholom


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On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 10:28:41PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: On 3/16/2018 4:16 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: >I'll agree that nothing is inherently qadosh. Things need to*become*
: >qadosh. But the example of Shabbos suggests that this can be done by
: >Hashem, not only humans.
: 
: The fruit of an apple tree that grows in a field in Eretz Yisrael
: during Shmittah has kedushah...

This is a better example than time. There is a reason reason why I
summarized the Meshekh Chokhmah's position as being about places or
things. I raised the same topic two years ago and was trying to
forestall RAM's question.

In <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n029.shtml#10> I wrote about
the MC on Har Sinai vs Har haBayis (Shemos 19:13, and in Devarim 1:8 he
links it to qedushas EY) and the first Luchos vs the second.

Then I concluded with a question related to RAM's and why I tried to
forestall it:

> That said, I believe the MC contrasts Shabbos and shemittah which are
> muqdashim by HQBH and YT and yovel which we (Sanhedrin) sanctify. I
> do not know how it fits.

i> Well, that should get the ball rolling. Anyone have ideas to add?
> (Or mistakes to subtract from my formulation?)

I since saw that the MC on Behar works from a Sifra (via the Ramban)
that says "just as it says by Shabbos Bereishis 'Shabbos Lashem', so
to it says by Shevi'is, 'Shabbos Lashem'". And then singles them out as
not depending on beis din. Unlike Yom Tov or Yovel.

And the thread continued for quite a while. (Click on the subject line
in the archive link above.) But about the text of the luchos, not my
question.

For all I know, the MC does clearly spell all this out. Look at the
first MC in Behar. I got lost at his quote of the Zohar. He closes
saying that because Shabbos and Shemittah attest to Maaseh Bereishis,
they don't require qiddush BD. But how that fits his general model? I
don't know; unless all the talk about in between about Torah, teshuvah,
and cheirus mimal'akh hamaves addresses is.

Maybe shemittah fruit are different because they aren't qadosh in-and-of
themselves, but a derivative of qedushas ha'aretz which does depend on
human action, and whatever it is the MC says about maaseh bereishis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

is anyone prepared to reflect upon - the well accepted practice of treating
a NafuAch, a bubble in the Matza, as though it is Chametz.

= = = = Air Pockets
Kezayis is a volume not a mass and it is measured WITH the small bubbles
within the Matza that is described by the MAvraham, ShA HaRav, ArHaShulchan
and MBerruah as being Rachos VeAsuYos KeSeFof - soft and spongy. ONly large
air pockets need to be squashed down for measurement of Kezayis.
BTW this also puts paid to the well accepted practice of treating a
NafuAch, a bubble in the Matza, as though it is Chametz.


[Email #2.]

Halacha - Matza Should be Soft and Spongy - because that is the way it
always was. The onus is upon those suggesting that it may be a hard cracker
because there is no doubt that this is a break from, in fact a violation of
Mesorah.
We have actual living evidence of the tradition of how to make soft Matza,
from Ari&Ari. These Matzos, baked by the women of the Yemenite communities,
are soft and about the thickness of an adult's finger. The entire process
is completed within 5 to 6 minutes.


Even the Chazon Ish does not explain why it is preferable to make Matza
dough with as little water as possible.

The ChCh ate Matza that was not as thin or dry and hard as today's MeHudar
Matza

When I posted, "Halacha does however, reflect upon Matza being soft
spongy." the focus was essentially that in spite of the trend towards hard
dry Matza, Halacha makes no mention of it being the preferred Matza and
certainly is not critical or issues no warnings about soft authentic Matza.
I added 2.5 points
A] it is Mezonos
B] it is Mezonos than can NEVER become HaMotzi, no matter how much is eaten
C] it is not even in the running to be a bread since it is not baked but
just dried out - dehydrated dough is not bread - it is like corn/wheat
flakes -


[Email #3.]

So you dont like soft matzah
firstly it was nly one sample, try another.

Besides
it is AT LEAST a Hiddur Mitzvah ...
and is likely the only way to actually fulfil ones abligation
so put up with the dislike and eat it for the Mitzvah
enjoy crackers the rest of Pesach


[Email #4]

the ChCh and his generation were not eating Matza the likes of what we are
today consuming.
They were thicker and not baked quite so hard
once below 2% moisture, they will pretty much not spoil - like dried fruit
[although they also have a high sugar that helps]
which was the purpose of baking them not as soft which would go mouldy

This madness is driven by money making and one-up-man-ship
just like the Esrog Lulav craze, MGBTA=MayGdBlessThemAll

The ChCh would NOT make HaMotzi on our Matza
I doubt he would issue a public protest - that would only prompt a war and
plenty of LH

How badly that might shock various people is not ever an actual proof
it is a lefty argument of sensitivity and fake outrage

Our Matza is not bread
they have not been baked but simply dried out.
dehydrated dough is not Matza, it is not Mezonos, it is not Pas HaBaAh
BeKisnin

It is evasive to ask - Who says there is a Shiur on water / flour ratio
we have a Mesorah
and that is what must be preserved
those who wish to change it bear the onus of proving the change is
legitimate

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

We begin the Seder with Matza being a reminder of our suffering ? but we
conclude it with a new perspective ? Matza reminds us of how quickly Gd
took us out of Egypt.
So what?s the big deal, if Gd was in a hurry to get us out He could/should
have redeemed us many years earlier?

If a beloved member of our family is incarcerated in a penitentiary
[derived from the word penance] we would want in every way possible to
provide reassurance that she is not forgotten and not abandoned.

But sometimes our sympathy and kindness obstructs the penance process and
prevents rehabilitation. And our love for her is focused on her
rehabilitation. In the words of our Sages ? 80% of our brothers and sisters
did not become rehabilitated, they did not leave Egypt.

However, when the day, the hour, the minute for release arrives, the warden
may not be in a hurry [she?s been here for 30 years 30 minutes longer is no
big deal] but we, the family who truly love her and have loved her
throughout this long painful process, are clamouring for her release and
every second over the limit is offensive and painful.

This is the hurry we experienced in our redemption ? it was driven by Gd?s
love for His Chosen People [there was no train to catch] and it makes us
realise that all the years of affliction were indeed only prompted by Gd?s
love for us.

This is the two faced Matza.

And this is Rabban Gamliel?s adjuration, We MUST declare and have otherwise
not fulfilled our obligation, when we have concluded the Seder ? ?This
Matza reflects the speed with which HKBH redeemed us? This means, we see
and have internalised the message; Matza may at first appear to suggest
that we are victims of a random and stochastic world, some people and
peoples are just born losers who will live their entire lives subsisting on
the bread of affliction whilst others win the lottery.

But we know better. We declare ?Matza ? symbolises the speed [the intense
and undying love] of our release, there was not even time for the dough to
rise.? Even the times we endured Gd?s cold shoulder, it was driven only by
His love for His Chosen People.




Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837 <+61%20423%20207%20837>
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Welcome to the world of minhag. It is called the human element, that 
part of the halachic world where we add our input, our flavor, that 
element of "je ne sais quoi".

The Rambam writes clearly that "minhag can forbid something that is 
permitted". This is one, fairly minor, example of that idea.

BTW: No one asked you to justify anything.

Ben
On 3/28/2018 9:21 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Do not ask me to justify or explain any of these
> practices. 

.
It has come to me attention recently that the Torah never refers to
the Pesach as a Korban. (Disclosure: I have not yet sat down with my
concordance to verify every single occurrence, but it certainly fits
the excerpts that I peruse in Parshas Hachodesh and in Seder Korban
Pesach.) The Torah does occasionally call it a Zevach, but it seems
that the vast majority of the time, the Torah simply calls it
"haPesach" - "the Passover", with no other noun associated with it.
And the verb is never "makriv", but just a simple "yaaseh".

(Thus, in my opinion, the common translation of "the Passover
offering" is misleading, as it misleads the reader to imagine a
category of things called "offering", and that "Passover" is a type of
offering. But that's not accurate, nor is there any literary or
grammatical need for it. We can simply translate it as "the Passover",
the same way as we translate "mishkan" as "the tabernacle" without
expanding it to "tabernacle building". But I digress, and I
apologize.)

I'm sure that some of you will be able to offer very learned drashos
about *why* the Pesach is not a korban. I do realize that there are
MANY halachos where the Pesach follows different rules. If that's why
the Torah chooses to avoid using the words "korban" or "yakriv" in
this context, I'm okay with that. That's NOT what I want to ask in
this thread. (But I don't mind a spin-off thread on that topic.)

My question is this: Whatever reason it was, why the Torah avoided
using that word in this context ... why did Chazal feel differently?
It is difficult (impossible?) to find anyplace where Chazal refer to
it as simply "hapesach"; they seem to have no compunction about
calling it the "korban pesach". Why is that? I accept the idea that
language changes over time, but technical terms - like "melacha" and
"tumah" - tend to stay pretty much the same. Did the word "korban"
change so much that the Pesach was not a korban in Moshe Rabenu's day,
but it was indeed a korban as Chazal used the term?

For extra credit, can anyone identify the era in which we did begin
referring to the Pesach in this manner? The neviim? Tannaim? Amoraim?
Knowing the historical context of the WhoWhereWhen, might shed light
on the Why.

Thanks!
Akiva Miller

Please see the discussions at

https://goo.gl/1PYXP4


One comment is


Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel, including some gedolim. However, some do it betzinoh so it is not so well known.

One such godol is the Erlau'er Rebbe. You can go in his beis medrash and
see him with tefillin. He keeps the minhogim of his zeide, the Chasam
Sofer, to wear tefillin on chol hamoed and daven nusach Ashkenaz.


There are even some minyonim where people wear tefillin on Chol Hamoed, like a Yekkishe minyan in Bnei Brak that I know of.


And for the record if you are in Flatbush for Pesach there is a minyan on
Chol Moed at the Flatbush Kollel only for those who wear tefillen.  The
Kollel is located on the corner of Bedford Ave and Ave K and the minyan
will start at 8 am every day during Chol Moed.


YL

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