Volume 36: Number 33
Wed, 28 Mar 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:45:18 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Sh'mini sh'mini!
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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:16:23 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrokts on the 8th Day
I raised this issue tangentially in another post. However, i want to raise it now explicitly.
Most people who do not eat Gebrokts during Pesach do eat Gebrokts on the
8th day of Pesach. Gebrokts food is made on the 8th day. However, this
year the 8th day of Pesach is Shabbos, so one cannot prepare Gebrokts on
the 8th day. My wife and I have both been told by people that when the 8th
day of Pesach is on Shabbos that Gebrokts is prepared on Friday afternoon
for consumption on Shabbos.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. If Gebrokts are a possible problem
in other years on the first 7 days of Pesach, then why aren't they a
problems this year on the 7th day of Pesach?
Any insight into this contradiction will be appreciated.
YL
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Message: 3
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:18:32 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Halacha - Matza Should be Soft and Spongy
= = = = Definition of Chametz and the Leavening Process
It is not clear why the Chazon Ish writes [Kovetz Igros, vol 1, letter
185:9] that it is preferable to make Matza dough with as little water as
possible.
Flour and water will become Chamets if combined and left unworked [Shulchan
Aruch, OC 459:2] at ambient temperature for the time required by an average
person to walk a Mil. [generally 18 minutes, Biur Halacha 259:2 also
discusses times of 22.5 and 24 minutes. Halacha recognises that if the
dough is cool it will not become Chametz even if left for a very long time]
Any factors that may warm the mixture, such as sunlight or the warmth of
the workers hands or friction from aggressive [machine] kneading, will
accelerate the process of becoming Chamets, prompting the Ramo (ibid) to
warn ?? that all delays must be minimised.
= = = = Authentic Matzah
It is important to note that the Halacha nowhere indicates that Matza must
be hard and crisp. It does however, reflect upon Matza being soft spongy.
ShA, addressing people who baked their own bread, probably almost daily,
and Matza for and during Pesach, understandably, does not bother to
describe the baking process.
There are however, communities who continue their very ancient tradition of
baking their own soft spongy Matza and who provide a window to observe
ancient Matza baking before commercialisation. These Matzos, baked by the
women of the Yemenite communities, are soft and about the thickness of an
adult's finger. The entire process is completed within 5 to 6 minutes.
= = = = Korech = Making a Wrap
Probably the most beloved and impressive proof that Matzah is a soft
product comes from the Seder itself. Korech [famously mis-translated as
?sandwich?] actually means ?rolled? or ?make a wrap?
= = = = Air Pockets
Kezayis is a volume not a mass and it is measured WITH the small bubbles
within the Matza that is described by the MAvraham, ShA HaRav, ArHaShulchan
and MBerruah as being Rachos VeAsuYos KeSeFof - soft and spongy. ONly large
air pockets need to be squashed down for measurement of Kezayis.
BTW this also puts paid to the well accepted practice of treating a
NafuAch, a bubble in the Matza, as though it is Chametz.
= = = = Matza is Indistinguishable from Chametz
The Gemara (Pesachim 7a) asserts that Matza and Chamets are
indistinguishable i.e. both look and taste like Pita or Laffa. Indeed,
Yemenites Matzot and pita look and taste quite similar. The Mishnah Berurah
(446:12) explains the obvious, that in the Gemara?s time, Matza was baked
as a thick Pita.
= = = = Mouldy Matza
The Gemara also discusses mouldy Matza, which only occurs with high
moisture content products i.e. soft spongy Matza. Hard, dry Matza almost
never becomes mouldy.
= = = = Stringy Dough
The Gemara (Pesachim 37a, and the Halacha) defines the minimal completion
of baking i.e. when the product is no longer at risk of becoming Chamets -
as when no doughy threads form when the Matza is torn apart. This test is
certainly not applicable to hard crispy Matza.
= = = = Sticky Dough
An alternative test - noting if dough has stuck to a skewer or toothpick
inserted into and removed from the product [Mishnah Berurah (461:13) speaks
of poking a finger into the Matza] also cannot apply to hard cracker Matza.
As with the Halacha that identifies Matza as a soft spongy product, here
too, the Mishnah Berurah?s unqualified acceptance about these tests,
strongly suggests he accepts them, even if we prefer to believe the
ChChayim ate hard cracker Matza.
The Chazon Ish, aware of this, points out [Ch Ish OC, Moed [5733] 120:17,
page 190a] that the stringy dough test cannot apply to our hard cracker
Matza, not even when it is still a dough.
= = = = The Isaron Measure
The Tur (end of OC 475) quoting his father the Rosh (early 14th century and
again by the Rama, 250 years after the Tur) wrote that the custom in France
and Germany was to make the three Matzos for the Seder from one Isaron (a
tenth of an Ephah) of flour - 43.2 eggs, > 1200 gr according to modest
calculations, thus 400gm Matzos. Our standard hard, thin Matza hardly
provide 2 Kezaysim, whilst a standard soft Yemenite Matzah easily has more
than 10 Kezaysim. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggros Moshe OC 5:16:4) observes
that originally Matzos were much larger, containing many Kezaysim.
Such a large Matza must be quite thick [otherwise it would be unreasonably
large and not fit even on a large table] and if baked hard, would not be
edible but require a hammer and cold chisel to break. Here, the Mishnah
Berurah (475:46) not only leaves this ruling unqualified but actually
observes that this custom was still practiced in many places [in the 19th
century]
The Darkei Moshe (OC 475:6) advises production of even larger i.e. thicker
Matzos, to accommodate all participants at a large Seder, with the required
amount. The Chok Yaakov (d. 1773; 475:26) makes a very similar observation
and the Chasam Sofer used thick soft Matza, giving each participant at his
Seder, Kezaysim from the 3 Matzos [Minhagei Maran BaAl HaChasam Sofer (d.
1839); 5731, 10:17 [page 51].
So, the Chasam Sofer?s warning that we avoid thick Matza [Shu"t OC 121]
must be referring to extremely thick Matza.
= = = = Kol Bo, Levush and RaAvad
The Kol Bo (Siman 48; 14th century) and later the Levush ([d.1612] OC
475:7) quote the Ra'avad as saying that the matzos one eats at the Seder
for the purpose of fulfilling one?s Mitzvah, ought not be too thick and
tasty because they are Lechem Oni, Poor Man?s Bread. This too clearly
asserts that Matza was otherwise a soft thick and spongy product.
= = = = Matzah Ought not be Too Thick
The Shulchan Aruch (OC 460:5) suggests that Matzah should not be too thick,
not more than a Tefach, between 3.5 - 4 inches [Iggerot Moshe OC 1:136. see
Yerushalmi Pesachim 2:4; Pesachim 37a] The Ashkenazi Rishonim tended to
permit thick Matzah, up to a Tefach. [See Yaakov Spiegel, Matzot Avos
BePesach, Yerushasenu, 5774, pages 195-196]
The Ramo (OC 460:4) advises that Matzah be made as Rekikin, i.e. thin
matzot, because they are less likely to become Chametz. The Be'er Heitiv
(460:8) defines this thickness at an Etzbah (finger) thick, 10 - 12 mm,
quoting the Beit Hillel [died 1690] The Pri Megadim (Eishel Avraham 460:4)
defines Etzbah as thumb width. This Chumrah, i.e. not making it one Tefach
thick 50 - 60mm, applied to the matzah produced for manufacturing matzah
meal. This matzah was baked with the intent of keeping it as white as
possible i.e. underbaking it which of course increased the risk of it
becoming Chametz.
= = = = Traditional Matzah Baking
Some, who have visited various soft matzah bakeries, suggest that they
witnessed product that was not-fully baked. They claim to have observed a
Yemenite woman who was familiar with the process from Yemen, she simply
kneaded a soft dough, squashed pieces of it into flattish rounds which were
put into the oven, the entire process being completed in under 5 minutes.
Now soft Matzah baking requires longer baking at lower temperatures in
order to permit the core of the Matzah to bake before the outside burns.
Whether it takes 30 seconds or 10 minutes is not the point, rather when
baking is completed, there are no doughy threads formed when it is torn
apart. The assumption appears to be that whilst it is baking it cannot
become Chametz but if it remains doughy it might become Chametz when it
cools.
The argument for thin hard Matza [which however, has no source, foundation
or documentation in Halachic sources] seems to be that when the dough
enters the oven and becomes warmed, it may possibly become Chametz
instantaneously, therefore it must be baked as quickly as possible i.e. the
thinner the Matza the better, and the hotter the oven the better.
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 15:47:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Halacha - Matza Should be Soft and Spongy
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:18:32PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: It is important to note that the Halacha nowhere indicates that Matza must
: be hard and crisp. It does however, reflect upon Matza being soft spongy.
But it also does not say it must be soft, or even better if soft. It
was just often assumed that de facto one's matzah was soft.
So how do you get from there to the "should be" of your subject line?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Binyamin Hecht
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Message: 5
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:42:33 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Chas VeShalom! - Gebrokts is not a Hiddur Mitzvah
Gebrokts is not a Hiddur Mitzvah
It does not require revocation as if it were a vow or anything like a vow
As Rav Moshe wrote - those who practised not eating Gebrokts may choose to
eat Gebrokts without compunction if they feel so inclined.
It is a practise that has no foundation in Halacha
Although many deem it to be a tradition that has as much authority as a
Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai - this is a Grobbe TaUs, I do not publicly call it
a joke because that may offend some who believe that it is or V likely is a
HLMiSInai, and we certainly must not possibly offend anyone defending
practices that have no foundation to day in Halacha but are embraced with
all the fervour that ought to be dedicated to Loving HaShem.
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 13:17:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrokts on the 8th Day
On 27/03/18 10:16, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> ?My wife and I have both been told by people that when
> the 8th day of Pesach is on Shabbos that Gebrokts is prepared on Friday
> afternoon for consumption on Shabbos.
>
>
> This makes absolutely no sense to me. ?If Gebrokts are a possible
> problem in other years on the first 7 days of Pesach, ?then why aren't
> they a problems this year on the 7th day of Pesach?
All cooking on Friday is ostensibly for a hypothetical unexpected guest
(or a horde of ravenous bochurim) who might show up right before shkiah.
Since we don't know this person's identity in advance, perhaps he will
not be a chossid, and will eat the gebrokts that have been prepared. He
might also be Sefardi, so it seems to me that in EY one may cook
kitniyos on Shevi'i shel Pesach, to be eaten, if our hypothetical guest
is a no-show, at the meals of Shabbos Motzo'ei Pesach.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 7
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:30:33 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] We Are Held acCOUNTable
As we know, Passover is the beginning which connects to Shavuot, the end (Atzeret).
This is the essential message of sefira. We are told in the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba):
Al y?dei mitzvat ha?omer, oseh Ha kadosh boruch Hu shalom bein ish l?ishto
?By means of the mitzvah of counting the Omer, God establishes peace between
husband and wife.? What a remarkable insight into human nature.
The same Midrash asks: ?What was it that earned the Jewish People the right to inherit
the Promised Land? The answer: mitzvat ha?omer.? They inherited the Promised Land
because they learned what counts and how to count, from freedom to redemption, from
independence to the rule of law and from liberty to a commitment to Torah.
Envy is the art of counting the other fellow?s blessings instead of your own.
Harold Coffin, famous author and columnist (1921-1993)
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Message: 8
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 10:07:39 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Fake Matza - Hard Thin Matza is not a Baked Product
very thin (Dak Min HaDak) crackers never attain the status of bread no
matter how much nor the circumstances in which they are eaten [Mishnah
Berurah 168:37, see also ShaAr HaTziyun 168:36]
Such crackers/wafers are not deemed to be bread because they have not been
baked but simply dried out.
HaRav Moshe Sternbuch [Tshuvos VeHanhagos 3:73] considers that our modern
day Matza might very well be so designated [no idea why he limits it to
hard machine matzah]
Consider this -
It is clear that a dough that is dried in the sun for example would never
qualify as bread and if freeze or low temperature vacuum dried [so that it
is not at risk of becoming Chametz] could not be used to fulfil one?s
obligation of eating Matzah. It seems that our thin hard Matza, which are
proudly promoted as being as thin as possible and ?baked? not in ovens but
in furnaces at such great temperature that ?baking? takes mere seconds and
if not promptly removed, will be incinerated - are certainly not Chametz,
but neither are they Matzos.
We might also add, that the dough which has so little water, cannot produce
what the Halacha defines as bread. MDM [Modern Day Matza] is not Matza.
Im Kach NaHagta - Lo Kiyamta .....
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 9
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:46:22 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Soft vs dry matza
The lemaaseh aspect of this question doesn't concern me (I didn't like
soft matzah the one year I tried it).
I was really asking about the Sefardi/Ashkenazi approach. I had thought
that we had moved past the point where "only Ashkenazi rabbis can rule
for Ashkenazim even if there is no ethic based halachic issue involved".
Ben
On 3/26/2018 11:23 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> 2- RHS answered your question for me halakhah lemaaseh about a decade
> ago.
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:04:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fake Matza - Hard Thin Matza is not a Baked
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:07:39AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: very thin (Dak Min HaDak) crackers never attain the status of bread no
: matter how much nor the circumstances in which they are eaten [Mishnah
: Berurah 168:37, see also ShaAr HaTziyun 168:36]
Except that we know that Ashkenazim were making hamotzi on cracker-like
matzos in the CC's day. For that matter, I would be shocked to learn that
the CC himself used anything but at his own seder!
So how could he possibly mean what you're saying he does?
: Such crackers/wafers are not deemed to be bread because they have not been
: baked but simply dried out.
Um, no. They're pas haba bekisnin at worst. We know crackers are considered
baked because they get a bori minei mezonos and not a ha'adamah.
: We might also add, that the dough which has so little water, cannot produce
: what the Halacha defines as bread. MDM [Modern Day Matza] is not Matza.
Who says there is a shiur on water / flour ratio, and if so, that it is more
than is used for contemporary Ashkenazi matzah?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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