Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 30

Mon, 26 Mar 2018

• 1. When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Sholom Simon)
• 2. Re: When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Sholom Simon)
• 4. deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say tachanun (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Gebrochts - Please Pass the Kneidlach (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Kintiyot derivatives (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Soft vs dry matza (Ben Waxman)
• 9. The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah (Professor L. Levine)
• 10. Coincidence (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. The size of a kazayit and of an amma (Arie Folger)
• 12. Re: The size of a kazayit and of an amma (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: The size of a kazayit and of an amma (Micha Berger)
• 14. No more (Not eating) Gebrokts (Prof. Levine)

> The SA says that one may not prepare a lot. The MB ad loc says this means
> more than one could explain as being necessary while still Shabbos.
> 
> "More than one needs for Shabbos"
> and
> "because it looks like preparing for after Shabbat"
> both say that....

My limited understanding: the Elya Raba says that the actual making of a
large quantity is ossur because it appears as if one is doing a
forbidden melacha. The M"B supports the Elya Raba and therefore when a
large quantity is required it should be prepared in several small bowls
and not a large quantity in a single bowl. 

(Tangent?  The M"B 10 says that there are opinions who are lenient and
say that if one adds oil to the salt before adding water or adds oil to
the water before adding salt, it is muter to make even a large quantity
(but only what is necessary for that Shabbos) because the oil prevents
the water and salt from being a pickling solution.  The Elya Rabba says
that the Mechaber disagrees.) 

Note, too, that the SA here (321:2) also says: "It is forbidden to
prepare even a small amount of a saline solution that is two parts salt
and one part water."  He doesn't qualify it.  This would seem to be
regardless of the quantity or purpose. 

The M"B 473:21 specifically addresses this issue vis-a-vis shabbos/seder
night.  (I guess he's assuming that the salt water one would use for the
seder is 2/3 salt?).  Given all this is why a number of poskim (to my
limited understanding) recommend making the salt water for the seder
before shabbos. 

-- Sholom
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On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 02:07:14PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: Note, too, that the SA here (321:2) also says: "It is forbidden to
: prepare even a small amount of a saline solution that is two parts salt
: and one part water."  He doesn't qualify it.  This would seem to be
: regardless of the quantity or purpose. 

Importantly, the SA says the reason is that it's too much like ibud.

It is only if you are looking at hachanah that quantity would
matter. Making too much for it to plausibly be for shabbos would be
hakhanah even if it weren't 2:1.

Also, if the only melakhah were hakhanah, there would be no problem
making salt water for the seider bein hashemashos. BhS, hakhanah for a
mitzvah is allowed. It's dami le'ibud that creates the whoile issue.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Importantly, the SA says the reason is that it's too much like ibud.
...
> Also, if the only melakhah were hakhanah, there would be no problem
> making salt water for the seider bein hashemashos. BhS, hakhanah for a
> mitzvah is allowed. It's dami le'ibud that creates the whoile issue.

Right.  I didn't mention ibud, but that's correct.

But you bring up an important point that's very relevant to our wives (or
whoever is setting up the table particularly for the second seder): that
hachana for a mitzvah is allowed during bein hashmoshes.

(Actually: must it be for a mitzvah?  Irrelevant in this case, but just
curious).

Regarding this very topic, I heard a beautiful vort by I believe 
Rabbi Moshe Kesselman. He taught that when one Jew has 
suffered a loss, then it affects all Jews since we should be as one.
In the same vein, conversely, when one Jew celebrates a simcha,
we should all celebrate and feel the joy (not necessarily in a literal sense
but figuratively speaking. This is true achdut and therefore, if there is a 
chatan at the minyan, we purposely don?t say tachanun because we feel
his joy.  

.
> From the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis>
> Q. When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder?
> A. The salt water should be prepared before Shabbos. This
> is because Shulchan Aruch (OC 321:2) rules that one may
> not prepare a large amount of salt water on Shabbos,
> since this was done in the process of tanning hides. The
> Mishnah Berurah (321:11) defines a large amount as more
> than one needs for Shabbos.

R' Simon Montagu responded:
> The Mishnah Berurah doesn't say that at all, in fact he
> looks from exactly the opposite perspective. He says
> that the issur is making more than one needs for Shabbat,
> and the reason that making a large amount is asur is
> because it looks like preparing for after Shabbat.

I think there's a typo here. I don't see anything in MB 321:11 about
defining "large amount". Perhaps the intention was for seif katan 9 or
12?

(Prior to my looking in the MB, I was going to suggest that "more than
one needs for Shabbos" might be dependent on whether he means "for
THIS Shabbos" or "for a TYPICAL Shabbos", the difference being that
most of us use a significant amount of salt water at the Seder, while
hardly anyone ever makes salt water the rest of the year.)

Akiva Miller

The Sha'arei Teshuvah (460:2) explains the Chumrah was initiated in
response to the Chametz risks associated with thick Matzos which were
specifically baked for making Matza Meal and tended to be under-baked [even
today specially baked Matza is used to provide a white flour - just try it,
crush some of regular Matza and see how heavily it is speckled with dark
spots - a BalaBustas nightmare]

The problem was not with combining it with water but that the Matza meal
was ALREADY Chametz. And so they issued a Chumrah to not eat the foods made
with such Matza Meal - until they stamped out that practice and made all
Matza Meal from Matza that was baked till it was hard and CRUSHED [whereas
the soft under-baked Matza was grated on a Rib-Ayzen, it could not be
crushed, it was soft]

Indeed, as R Micha notes, this means it was Assur even if the Matzah never got
wet.

However, it is not about how well the flour and water was mixed but about
how well it was baked.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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I just saw that the OU rules that iodized salt must be kasher l'pesach 
because it uses a corn derivative. Tara milk puts in a vitamin D 
supplement that comes from a plant so it is labeled "L'ochlei kitniyot 
bilvad".

Are there any kashrut agencies that pasken the " derivatives of kitniyot 
aren't kitniyot" rule? I know of rabbanim who rule this way, that isn't 
my question.

Ben

In this week's Shabbat B'shabato (yea, it is back! Unfortunately, the 
publication isn't online nor is the translation), two rabbis discuss 
soft matzot.? I'll sum by saying that rabbis agree that according to the 
dry (no pun intended) halacha, there is no problem with Ashkenazim using 
soft matzot.? Their argument is a bit more nuanced. Rav Eli Tzilicha 
feels that there are real advantages to eating soft matzot and these 
advantages over rule any minhag to use the cracker-like matzot. Rav 
Yehoshua Dake feels that since Ashkenazim have lost the mesoret of how 
to make these matzot, they shouldn't make them or eat. However, Sefardim 
and Teimanim who do have a mesoret are permitted to do so.

My question would be if a Sefardi rav says that a matza is perfectly 
kosher, why can't an Ashkenazi person eat it? It isn't as if there is an 
argument here about the halacha.

Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky saw my post about his article dealing with soft matzos and sent me the following:


You might be interested in the companion article:
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol17Zivotofsky.pdf

YL



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The first day of Pesach (15 Nissan) and the actual date of Tisha b?Av (9 Av)
always fall on the same day of the week without exception. It has been asked
why one day dedicated to mourning and sadness should coincide with Pesach.
Jewish history, from its very inception, appears to be a veritable paradox. The 
mystical wheel of Israel?s destiny is a dissonance of light and darkness, joy and
sorrow, hope and despair, etc. It has been said that from the depths of Israel?s
severest tribulations, the seeds of redemption are miraculously sown. 
History clearly depicts how Israel?s deliverance constantly emerges from the midst
of tragedy. It is for this reason that Pesach, which symbolizes redemption, coincides
with Tisha b?Av, which embodies suffering and destruction. Accordingly, both holidays 
fall on the same day indicating that salvation shall spring forth from the very core of disaster.


?Such then is the message of Passover?undying conviction that death shall be swallowed up in victory; 
that the dry bones of liberty, democracy and human brotherhood shall everywhere rise again, strong and
irresistible; and that the Passover ideal of human freedom shall become part of the very life of the nations.
The late Chief Rabbi, Dr Joseph H Hertz
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Dear Ovedim,

In a parallel discussion the different estimates of kazayit were noted,
including how Rav Chaim Noe may have overestimated his shiurim by 10%
because the dirham grew by 10%.

Now all shiurim are somehow connected with one another, weight, volume and
length, are they? Hence, if our kezeitim and reviiyot are too large and
should be smaller, so should the amma. IIUC, a reviit of 75cc corresponds
to an amma of roughly 43.5-45cm.

An amma of 43.5-45cm would make many eiruvin passul. Therefore I ask, are
there any poskim who insist on an amma of 43.5-45cm? Does Rav Willig, who
paskens that a reviit is 75cc, hold that ammot are that small? Do other
poskim?

Kol utv,
-- 
Arie Folger
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On 26/03/18 07:04, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:

> IIUC, a reviit of 75cc corresponds to an amma of roughly 43.5-45cm.

1 revi'it = 10.8 cubic etzba'ot.  Therefore a 75 ml revi'it means a 45.8 
cm amma.

 > An amma of 43.5-45cm would make many eiruvin passul.

How so?  4.6 m gaps treated as less than 10 amot?  23 cm gaps treated as 
lavud?


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 01:04:17PM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
: Now all shiurim are somehow connected with one another, weight, volume and
: length, are they? Hence, if our kezeitim and reviiyot are too large and
: should be smaller, so should the amma. IIUC, a reviit of 75cc corresponds
: to an amma of roughly 43.5-45cm.

Funny you should mention that, because I had a half-written email to Avodah
on the subject that I think evaporated before sent. (I think I accidentally
deleted it shutting down for Shabbos.)

A revi'is is 2 x 2 x 2.7 cubic etzba'os (Pesachim 109a, but see Y-mi
Sheqalim 3:2 [vilna 13b, bavli 9a], see Tosafos ad loc, "revi'is" giving
two explanations of the Y-mi both of which mean ruling like the Babli).
So, the weight of a durham, and knowing whether we map weight of a
revi'is of water of odf wine would allow us to compute an ammah.

RCN's 86cc instead of 75cc revi'is is an error in volume of 1.1467, or an
error in length of the cube root of that -- 1.047. So, RCN's ammah would
be corrected from 48cm to 45.9cm.

The Rambam implies the 75cc revi'is, as the Rambam says a revi'is [of
water? wine?] weighs the same as 27 dirham (Edios 1:2) -- the math RCN was
trying to do but with problems getting the right dirham. And... Shitas
haRambam (acc to Midos veShiurei Torah, R Chaim Benish) is 45.59-46.08cm
So I think I did the right math.

I think that RCN in theory holds like the Rambam, but had that error
in his metzi'us.

And I think that RCN was trying to justify the minhag of the Yishuv haYashan
and only came in too high because of that error. IOW, it seems to me that
the YhY of his day was simply following the Rambam, whether they realized
that's what they were doing, or de facto, doing what everyone sees done was
the Rambam's shitah.

I do not know how you got the range you did, but that's how the inyan looks
to me. Still might be an eiruv problem, as far as I know.


When I tried to use archology to get historical ammos, I raised the
question of whether kelalei hapesaq mean that the historal shiur needn't
be the same as the current one. Or that the ammah in Chizqoyahu's day
needn't be the same as those found in bayis sheini.
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/units-of-measure> (Which I believe includes
Zev's corrections of my math.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The goal isn't to live forever,
mi...@aishdas.org        the goal is to create so mething that will.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 08:08 PM 3/25/2018, Akiva Miller wrote on Areivim:

I am moving this to Avodah.

>R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
>
> > Today as I walked home from a kiddush with a neighbor he told
> > me that his brother-in-law, who did not eat Gebrokts in the
> > past, has decided that from now on he will eat Gebrokts. His
> > brother-in-law is not on my email list, so the Committee to
> > Encourage People to Eat Gebrokts cannot take credit for this
> > switch. Nonetheless, this is something that the Committee applauds.
>
>I would applaud it too, *IF* that person asked a shailah about whether
>he is allowed to change that practice.
>
>If he simply decided, on his own, to abandon his previous practice,
>then I would NOT applaud it.
>
>(Please note my use of the word "practice". I am not paskening on
>whether or not this counts as a minhag. That's the posek's job.)
>
>Akiva Miller (who has never avoided gebroks)


Why doesn't the hataras Nedarim we make before Rosh Hashana work for this?

YL
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