Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 29

Fri, 23 Mar 2018

• 1. Re: When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Simon Montagu)
• 2. deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say tachanun (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Please Pass the Kneidlach (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Eating Shalosh Seudos late in the Afternoon (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Please Pass the Kneidlach (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Micha Berger)
• 7. davening outside (Rich, Joel)
• 8. More on Not Eating Gebrokts (Professor L. Levine)
• 9. The Real Shiurim ? They?re Smaller Than You Think (Professor L. Levine)
• 10. Re: More on Not Eating Gebrokts (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: The Real Shiurim -- They're Smaller Than You Think (Micha Berger)
• 12. The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah (Professor L. Levine)

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> From the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
>
>
> Q. When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder?
>
> A. The salt water should be prepared before Shabbos. This is because
Shulchan Aruch (OC 321:2) rules that one may not prepare a large amount of
salt water on Shabbos, since this was done in the process of tanning hides.
The Mishnah Berurah (321:11) defines a large amount as more than one needs
for Shabbos.

The Mishnah Berurah doesn't say that at all, in fact he looks from exactly
the opposite perspective. He says that the issur is making more than one
needs for Shabbat, and the reason that making a large amount is asur is
because it looks like preparing for after Shabbat.
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At 10:40 AM 3/19/2018, Joel Rich wrote:


>  few months ago I was in the main shul in a yishuv. The shul was quite
>large. There was a psak there by the shul rav stating in a small
>community shul, where everyone knows everyone, it makes complete sense
>that if there is a chatan, then one doesn't say tachanun. However, in
>this shul, in which strangers pray there every day and even not all the
>members know everyone, the presence of a chatan doesn't really add to
>their simcha. That being the case, visitors to the shul should say
>tachanun, even if the congregation doesn't.
>=================================
>interesting-I'd love to know the source-seems unusual to split the 
>minyan (I can think of only one example- a sandek at mincha after morning brit)

I recall that at least once R. A. Miller had me pass a note that he 
wrote to a chosson telling him to leave the shul so the minyan could 
say tachanun.  I am told that Rav Schwab also used to send a chosson 
out so the shul could say tachanun.

YL


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From  https://goo.gl/Wi8ujU


PLEASE PASS THE KNEIDLACH


On the other hand, we find many poskim who were unconcerned about the
stringent opinions and permitted the consumption of gebrokts. The Sha'arei
Teshuvah (460:2) maintains that the basis for the chumrah was that at one
time matzos were made very thick and the dough inside was not kneaded or
baked well. Although he points out that every Rav should supervise the
matzah baking in his town to ensure that this does not occur, nevertheless,
this was a valid concern. However, he continues, nowadays when the matzos
are made very thin, there is no concern and "lo machzikinan issura" - one
does not need to presume that there is anything prohibited unless he knows
it to be a fact. He cites the She'ailas Yaavetz who quotes his father, the
Chacham Tzvi, that one should not refrain from simchas Yom Tov because of
far-fetched concerns and that he saw "chasidei olam" - exceedingly
righteous people, who ate soaked matzos. Similarly, the Vilna Gaon is
quoted as permitting soaked matzos (Ma'ase
 h Rav).


The Mishnah Berurah (458:4) quotes the Sha'arei Teshuvah that according to
the basic halacha one is allowed to eat gebrokts,especially since our
matzos are very thin. However, one should not spurn those who are
stringent.

This web page has a comprehensive discussion about Gebrokts.

YL

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The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis.


For  me it raises questions about the common practice of men eating Shalosh
Seudos in shul after Mincha.  Another question I have about this practice
is that it leaves the women at home alone and many will not eat Shalosh
Seudos at home alone,  whereas if the husband came home to eat the third
meal chances are the wife would join him.


Q. This year, because the first day of Pesach is Shabbos, one must make
sure to eat three meals on the first day of Yom Tov. Is there any issue
with eating Shalosh Seudos late in the afternoon?



A. The mitzvah of honoring Yom Tov includes refraining from beginning a
meal on erev Yom Tov within 3 hours of sunset. Chazal forbade starting a
meal close to Yom Tov, so that one will enter Yom Tov with an appetite.
Even on Shabbos, when there is a requirement to eat Shalosh Seudos, it is
preferable that one begin Shalosh Seudos more than three hours (sha'os
zemaniyos - halachic hours) before sunset. In early Spring, a halachic hour
will be only slightly longer than a regular hour. However, it is also
preferable to eat Shalosh Seudos after davening Mincha. Therefore, one
should try to attend an early Mincha on Shabbos, so one can start Shalosh
Seudos more than three hours before sunset. If this is not possible, one
should eat before davening Mincha. However, if one was delayed and did not
begin Shalosh Seudos before this time, the Mishnah Berurah (529:8) writes
that one must still eat Shalosh Seudos even after this time. One should
scale back the meal, so that one will still
  have an
  appetite at night.

The Magen Avrohom writes that this even applies in a year such as this one
when Shabbos is also the first day of Yom Tov. In other words, we are
required to scale back our eating in the late afternoon of the first day of
Yom Tov, in order to have an appetite at night (which is the second day Yom
Tov). The Mishnah Berurah (Beiur Halacha 529, s.v. B'erev) questions why
this should be so. How could enjoying the first day of Yom Tov, which is a
mitzvah from the Torah, get pushed off because of the need to honor the
second day of Yom Tov, which is only a mitzvah d'rabbanan? However, the
Mishnah Berurah recognizes that the ruling of the Magen Avrohom was
accepted by the later poskim, and elsewhere, the Mishnah Berurah (471:16)
quotes the Magen Avrohom without comment.


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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 09:10:40AM +0000, Professor L. Levine quoted from
Maane Simcha Foundation's Ask the Rabbi column:
: On the other hand, we find many poskim who were unconcerned about
: the stringent opinions and permitted the consumption of gebrokts. The
: Sha'arei Teshuvah (460:2) maintains that the basis for the chumrah was
: that at one time matzos were made very thick and the dough inside was
: not kneaded or baked well...

And, as already stated, the SA haRav made the opposite argument.

Besides "not kneaded or baked well" would mean assur even if the matzah never
got wet. It's about how well the flour and water was mixed.

In any case, it is unfair to the article to quote "the other hand" while
elliding the stong arguments the same article makes for the first hand.
(Including a rishon, the Ra'avan, and the possibility that avoiding gebrochts
is the implication of a gemara.)

And this:
> THE CHASAM SOFER'S MINHAG

> It is interesting to note that there is a discrepancy in the sources
> regarding the Chasam Sofer's custom vis-`a-vis eating gebrokts. On the
> one hand, he writes in a teshuvah (Yoreh Deah, #222, s.v. ela) that
> it is a "mitzvah and prishus" not to eat soaked matzah on Pesach. This
> would indicate that he did not eat gebrokts. On the other hand, we find
> in the Minhagei Chasam Sofer (10:25) that he ate knaidlach. (See also
> Shu't Maharshag [mahadura kama] 56:2.)

> It is possible that the Chasam Sofer held that there is room to be
> stringent according to halacha, but when it came to his minhagim,
> he did not wish to deviate from how his teacher, Rav Nosson Adler,
> conducted himself. Therefore, in his responsa he wrote what he held,
> while in his personal conduct he acted differently. Since he held that
> it was only a chumrah, he did not accept it upon himself as it meant
> changing a minhag. (See Shu't Sheivet Sofer, Orach Chaim #27; Sefer
> Moadim l'Simcha, vol. V, pg. 442.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 01:01:59AM +0200, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: > A. The salt water should be prepared before Shabbos. This is because
: > Shulchan Aruch (OC 321:2) rules that one may not prepare a large amount of
: > salt water on Shabbos, since this was done in the process of tanning hides.
: > The Mishnah Berurah (321:11) defines a large amount as more than one needs
: > for Shabbos.

: The Mishnah Berurah doesn't say that at all, in fact he looks from exactly
: the opposite perspective. He says that the issur is making more than one
: needs for Shabbat, and the reason that making a large amount is asur is
: because it looks like preparing for after Shabbat.

I don't see how the two differ.

The SA says that one may not prepare a lot. The MB ad loc says this means
more than one could explain as being necessary while still Shabbos.

"More than one needs for Shabbos"
and
"because it looks like preparing for after Shabbat"
both say that. RSM's version has the advantage of emphasizing the
appearance aspect of hakhanah, how is that "exactly the opposite"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The goal isn't to live forever,
mi...@aishdas.org        the goal is to create so mething that will.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I recently attended a levaya in Bet Shemesh for the first time. After the
kevura a mincha minyan was organized outside near the funeral hall (which
was not in use) and the kollel room (also not in use). When I suggested
using one of those venues rather than davening outside (see S"A O"C 90:5 et
al) I was told that at this cemetery davening always took place outside. I
understand it's not forbidden but wondered why it would be done if there
was an inside alternative. Anyone know?
KT
Joel Ri

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From

https://goo.gl/26LwUE


Interestingly, one posek even voiced opposition to the minhag, arguing that
the limitations imposed by its adherence would place unnecessary
limitations on Pesach menus, thereby diminishing the enjoyment of the Yom
Tov.


It is important to note that even those who keep this custom are careful to
emphasize that it is only a stringency, and not a halachically-mandated
requirement. For this reason, Hasidim and others following this minhag
often partake of gebrokts on the eighth day of Pesach*, so as to
symbolically join their brethren who have not adopted the chumra.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I wonder how many of "those who keep this custom are careful to emphasize
that it is only a stringency, and not a halachically-mandated requirement."
 Indeed,  I wonder how many people who do not eat Gebrokts know what the
halacha is regarding not eating Gebrokts.


See the above URL for more.


YL


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From

https://goo.gl/Fx7AAh


Today, many charts outline exactly how much matzah, maror, and wine must be
eaten at he Seder. These shiurim, however, are significantly larger than
what longstanding minhag requires.


For example, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, zt?l (a nephew of Rav Simcha Zelig
of Brisk), said that Jews in Brisk used a becher that was 70 ml, which is
2.36 oz. Another gadol of the previous generation, Rav Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach, zt?l, recounted that when Rav Avraham Chaim Naeh published his
sefer on shiurim, Shiurei Tzion, the Jews of Yerushalayim were shocked at
how machmir he was (Meged Givos Olam II, Darchei Hora?ah 12). Rav Chaim
Naeh?s shiur for a revi?is is 86 grams, or 2.9 oz. (Interestingly, the
number 86 is also the gematria of the word kos. The Chazon Ish?s shiur for
a revi?is is 150 grams, which is the gematria of the words ?kos hagun.?)


See the above URL for more.


Last year I purchased  an inexpensive scale and my grandchildren  used it
to weigh out the amounts of matzo and morror  (Romaine lettuce) based on a
chart that came from a sefer written by a  rabbi who was an expert in these
amounts.  It turned out that the amounts of morror and matzo determined in
this manner were considerably less than what we had eaten in previous
years.


YL

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On 22/03/18 08:46, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> 
> I wonder how many of "those who keep this custom are careful to 
> emphasize that it is only a stringency, and not a halachically-mandated 
> requirement." ?Indeed, ?I wonder how many people who do not eat Gebrokts 
> know what the halacha is regarding not eating Gebrokts.

Pretty much all of them, at least in chu"l, since they davka do eat it 
on the last day, even though all the strictures against chomets are 
still in place.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 05:40:31PM +0000, Professor L. Levine quoted
from R Rephael Fuchs's column in the Jewish Press at <https://goo.gl/Fx7AAh>:
: Today, many charts outline exactly how much matzah, maror, and wine must
: be eaten at he Seder. These shiurim, however, are significantly larger
: than what longstanding minhag requires.

And if we take a break from Ashkocentrism, many Sepharadim use the Rambam's
shiurim, which is creatinly at this point "longstanding minhag".

:             Another gadol of the previous generation, Rav Shlomo Zalman
: Auerbach, zt"l, recounted that when Rav Avraham Chaim Naeh published his
: sefer on shiurim, Shiurei Tzion, the Jews of Yerushalayim were shocked at
: how machmir he was (Meged Givos Olam II, Darchei Hora'ah 12). Rav Chaim
: Naeh's shiur for a revi'is is 86 grams, or 2.9 oz...

R' Yochanan Lombard explains how this happened at
<https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=4348>:
   To clarify the issue a bit, Rav Chaim Naeh set out to support the
   existing minhag that was essentially based on a coin called a `dirham'
   which was used commonly as a certified weight. This coin was used
   extensively as a standard measure of weight throughout the Middle
   East from the times of the Rambam, who quotes it as the means of
   measuring halachic quantities. While Rav Naeh was fighting this cause,
   the Ottoman Empire was crumbling, and the dirham lost its stability.
   Unknowingly, the dirham Rav Chaim Naeh was using as a standard measure
   was roughly 10% larger than it was over the centuries, which threw him
   off a bit. Interestingly enough, Chazon Ish, who held the measurements
   should be doubled, did not double Rav Chaim Naeh's measurements
   based on the dirham, but rather what actually fit other standards,
   i.e. 75 cc. On a personal note, years back I used to sell eggs and
   measured dozens of them, finding that eggs are naturally around 50cc,
   putting the Reviit at 75cc (nowadays chickens are treated to grow
   large eggs and therefore the standard egg is almost 60cc which would
   fit Rav Chaim Naeh's measurement).

   Since Rav Chaim Naeh's halachic reasoning is based on the tradition
   of the dirham, and we know for certain that the dirham was actually
   smaller, Rav Chaim Naeh would surely agree that the Reviit should
   be 75cc.

Which is what above Rambam-following Sepharadim aim for, as it is the
Rambam who ties the revi'is to 27 dirhams.

BTW, R Modechai Willig holds 2.5floz (75cc) as well.
<http://download.yutorah.org/2012/1053/Pesach_To-Go_-_5771_Rabbi_Willig.pdf>

: number 86 is also the gematria of the word kos...

As if "grams" have any Jewish meaning?

(BTW, the spectrum of light reflected by murex tekheiles peaks at
a wavelength of 613 nanometers. Equally specious.)

: Last year I purchased an inexpensive scale and my grandchildren used
: it to weigh out the amounts of matzo and morror (Romaine lettuce) based
: on a chart that came from a sefer written by a rabbi who was an expert
: in these amounts. It turned out that the amounts of morror and matzo
: determined in this manner were considerably less than what we had eaten
: in previous years.

Was the Rav Sepharadi? They have a long tradition of assuming that all matzah
weighs alike, and therefore using weight to measure volume.

It is far more accurate than using area to approximate volume, as most
modern charts do. Two hand matzos could easily differ in thickness by
1/3 or more without someone noticing, so that the same area of matzah
similarly differ in volume and yet mentally estimate the same. However,
the flour to water ratio of matzah doesn't vary nearly that much, once
baked. Nor the weight of different flour.

Also the problem with relying on mimeticism for matzah. (Not so for wine
or maror.) Matzos had been steadily getting thinner from 1750 to 1950
or so. And it is so hard to notice differences in matzah thickness and
take them fully into account? Have social norms kept up with the reality
despite seeming different to the eye?

RMWillig has a kezayis of 22.5cc, and writes that Middos veShiurei
haTorah pg 277 reports matzah has half the weight of an equivalent
volume of water. So, RMW says a kezayi matzah weighs 11.25gm. (1cc of
water weighs 1gm, by definition. So, the weight of 2cc of matzah is 1gm.)
We buy matzah by the pound, so you can estimate a kazayis pretty
accurately if you know how many matzos are in a 1lb box. (2lb boxes,
divide by 2, naturally.) There are 40.3 or so kezeisim in a pound.

matzos / lb  ->  kezayis matzah
 6  ->  2/13 of a matzah
 7  ->  1/6
 8  ->  1/5
 9  ->  2/9
10  ->  1/4

And if you're buying Syrian matzah from R David in Flatbush
3.5 -> 2/23
Yes, 11 to 12 kezeisim from a matzah smaller than a personal pizza.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Please see the very interesting article about this topic at

https://goo.gl/aMfutH


YL
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