Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 23

Tue, 27 Feb 2018

• 1. Re: shtarei hedyotot (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Besamim and Havdala (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: All food decrees driven by social isolation policy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Heter Iska and "The Howey Rule" (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Mabul and Dinosaurs from R Shlomo Miller shlitah (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Besamim and Havdala (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: Besamim and Havdala (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Besamim and Havdala (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Besamim and Havdala (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Re: The Besht (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Birchat Kohanim (Rich, Joel)
• 12. gezel akum (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Latest Archeological Finding -- Yeshaiah haNavi's? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Ki Sissa (cantorwolb...@cox.net)

>> My suspicion (and that?s all it is so I am really wondering if
>> anyone has clarified this) is that like a number of gzeirot
>> that according to the algorithm should not be able to be undone,
>> common practice has recognized the reality that perhaps their
>> application today is less clear?  Any insights into current
>> rabbinic thinking would be very much appreciated.
> 
> In what way is the application less clear 
/://:/..
Meaning that the concern that you would come to read other items such as
loan documents may now not be considered as much a concern. I don?t know
that?s a fact just a guess that it could. Be similar in poskims?minds
similar to how we seem to have become much more lenient about medications
on Shabbat 
Kt
Joel rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 08:22:43PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: But there's no real *need* to interrupt Havdala Al Hakos for the besamim,
: is there? Why was it set up like that? Why couldn't Besamim simply be part
: of Seder Motzaei Shabbos, either before or after Havdala Al Hakos?

I can't answer your main question, because I don't feel it's a real "*need*",
and therefore I can't explain why besamim and eish aren't a hefseiq between
hagafen and drinking. If there is no requirement lachazor acharav, then
how are they critical enough to not be a hefseiq? Obviously the answer
is to make a chiluq in the criteria for criticality, but quantitative?
Qualitative?

However, besamim and aish give you the hana'ah necessary for the berakhah
of lehavdil. One braces the soul for the departure of Shabbos, the other
uses hav'arah, proving hana'ah from it being chol. (Hana'ah? Looking at
the shadows of your fingertips and your nails? Don't blame me, I'm just
the messenger.) Without both, you'd be making a berakhah more like Dayan
ha'emes -- kesheim shemivorkhim al hatov...

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Tue, Feb 06, 2018 at 01:05:41PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: The Gemara AZ 35, Rashi explains - SheLaKos, food cooked even in and with
: clean utensils, they are ALL prohibited due to Chasnuss.

Why "ALL"? This is simply bishul aku"m, no?

...
: AZ 36, oil was prohibited even though NTLifGam is permitted. See Kovets
: Teshuvos Reb  Y Sh Elyashiv Vol 3:115, that Shemuel really was motivated
: because of Chasnuss...

Shemu'el? Daniel! Stam shamnam is like stam yeinam, and explicitly mishum
chasnus. Or at least it could have been, had it been equally nispasheit
bekhol Yisrael. Which is Rav's explanation for the lack of issur today.

I don't have qobeitz teshuvos RYSE. But it would seem to me logical to
point out that what prohbited those keilim to begin with was still the
gezeira mishum chasnus of the oil trapped in them. After all, Shemu'el
isn't explaining Daniel, he is explaining how Rebbe's court had the
authority to vote away Dani'el's legislation. Shemu'el is saying that
he believes it was repealed in Rebbe's day as a side effect of pasqening
about na"t lifgam. But the issur still was proposed for the commonly
given reason.

In any case, no one questions the mishum chasnus motive of bishul
aku"m or stam yeinam (or shamnam). What is the new data you're using to
generalize from?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58:36AM -0500, Yonatan Kaganoff via Avodah wrote:
: In short (tl;dr) the Howey Rule was the outcome of a landmark Supreme Court
: decision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co.) defining a
: "security" and how it differs from a "commodity".

But the point of heter isqa is not to change the noun, but the verb.

A person can't lend for neshekh o tarbit. Nothing said about what is lent.
Admittedly the definition of "security" you gave seems specific to
investing rather than lending. But still, I don't know if focusing on
the object is the right approach.


: (I am personally interested in which cryptocurrencies are commodities and
: which are securities.)

An easier question -- I don't think they're mamon. Mamon seems to be limited
to the local primary medium of exchange. Even down to silver vs gold, if one
metal is the primary coinage and the other is only used more rarely.

Borrowing foreign currency has to be either linked to the local currency
or it's ribbis derekh meqach umemkar, like a commodity.


Hey, I'm totally ignorant on the subject. But when has that stopped me from
chiming in before?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Feb 06, 2018 at 10:08:12AM -0500, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
: Rabbi A. Bartfeld as revised by Horav Shlomo Miller Shlita
: Posted 2/5/2018 12:23 PM
: <http://www.frumtoronto.com/Blogger.asp?BlogCategoryID=98&;ShowEntryID=17156>
:> Q. My son asked me how the animals which appear to be indigenous to
:> Australia only (for example), arrived there after the flood? Were they
:> there before the flood? Were they destroyed by the flood? Were there
:> kangaroos on the tayva?

As part of his description of the Dor haHaflagah, R SR Hirsch explains
the need for a diversity of host countries with their own climate flora
and fauna to get multiple perspectives. Leshitaso, people dind't scatter
because they couldn't cross-communicate. Hashem scattered the people,
which gave them contexts in which their languages diverged.

So, no surprise that various animals or plants would be local to a given
region, even if the flood did include lands that had no human settlement
yet.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

.
I asked why Besamim (and Aish) are inserted between Hagafen and
Hamavdil. R' Micha Berger seemed to share my question, and then
suggested:

> However, besamim and aish give you the hana'ah necessary for
> the berakhah of lehavdil. One braces the soul for the departure
> of Shabbos, the other uses hav'arah, proving hana'ah from it
> being chol. (Hana'ah? Looking at the shadows of your fingertips
> and your nails? Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger.) Without
> both, you'd be making a berakhah more like Dayan ha'emes --
> kesheim shemivorkhim al hatov...

It's an intriguing idea, except that I've never before heard of
"hana'ah necessary for the berakhah of lehavdil." Do you have a
source? I always considered Havdala a Shevach, just like Kiddush is.

On the other hand your wording suggests a marvelous way that Havdala
MIGHT have developed: Step 1, say the bracha of besamim, and smell
them, to "brace the soul for the departure of Shabbos". Then, say
Hamavdil to actually mark the end of Shabbos. And in step 3, now that
Shabbos has officially ended, light the ner and say the bracha, as
Adam HaRishon did.

But alas, that's NOT how Havdala developed. For some reason, the Ner
and Aish got stuck in the middle, which seems odd because of the
apparent hefsek. (A second problem I have with our procedure is that
[unless you're going to use a flame that's been burning since Erev
Shabbos] it *requires* a volunteer to do the sub-optimal act of saying
Hamavdil Without Shem Umalchus in order to light the candle.)

Akiva Miller

On 21/02/18 22:23, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> A second problem I have with our procedure is that
> [unless you're going to use a flame that's been burning since Erev
> Shabbos] it*requires*  a volunteer to do the sub-optimal act of saying
> Hamavdil Without Shem Umalchus in order to light the candle.)

Why does it require that?  If the person lighting the candle has davened 
maariv and said Ata Chonantanu, there's nothing suboptimal.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:23:44PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: > and your nails? Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger.) Without
: > both, you'd be making a berakhah more like Dayan ha'emes --
: > kesheim shemivorkhim al hatov...
: 
: It's an intriguing idea, except that I've never before heard of
: "hana'ah necessary for the berakhah of lehavdil." Do you have a
: source? I always considered Havdala a Shevach, just like Kiddush is.

Yes, as I wrote, one /could/ be praising G-d "kakh mevorkhum al
hara" that Shabbos ends. But that's not havdalah. I don't have
a maqor. Could be my father, it's something I "always knew" --
precedes my ability to remember learning it.

A thinking on my feet answer:
That sort of shevach wouldn't be al hakos.

...
: But alas, that's NOT how Havdala developed. For some reason, the Ner
: and Aish got stuck in the middle, which seems odd because of the
: apparent hefsek. (A second problem I have with our procedure is that
: [unless you're going to use a flame that's been burning since Erev
: Shabbos] it *requires* a volunteer to do the sub-optimal act of saying
: Hamavdil Without Shem Umalchus in order to light the candle.)

Having no one who said "Atah Chonanatanu" in Maariv is the sub-optimal
part of that picture. I don't know if they would coin this kind of thing
to accomodate women who have no men around.

(It would have been assumed they would find a man to make havdalah for
them. Like the famous story of Rebbetzin Zacks -- nee Kagan, the daughter
of the CC. She could have made her own Havdalah; she certainly knew
how. But bachurim would come by to make Havdalah for her. Until the week
where one bachur said (roughly), "Anshuldig, rebbetzin, but do you have
a larger becher? I don't think this one is keshiur." And she replied,
"But that was my father's becher!")

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> If the person lighting the candle has davened maariv and
> said Ata Chonantanu, there's nothing suboptimal.

Thank you. Many years ago I learned Rama 299:10, which distinguishes
between a "melacha gemura" and other melachos, but I had mis-learned
it. (I had thought Rama was advising us to avoid all melacha prior to
Havdala Al Hakos, but actually he's advising against a shita which
would allow minor melachos even prior to Ata Chonantanu.)

Thanks to this thread, I was forced to relearn it, and I think I have
it straight now.

Akiva Miler

B"H these rabbanim disagree. Having unity of thought would (amongst 
other things) make the Torah quite boring. The differences make it quite 
fun (amongst other things).

Ben

On 2/19/2018 7:21 PM, Saul Guberman via Avodah wrote:
>   RSRH is not the only commentator and expounder
> on the religion.  There is no reason to square this with his thoughts.  He
> was not a tanah, amorah, Gaon or Rishon.

The Mishna Brurah tells us that the reason everyone says the ribbono shel
olam (about dreams) in a Birchat Kohanim outside of Eretz Yisrael on
Shalosh Regalim is because everyone must've had at least one bad dream in
the interim. In Israel, where they duchen every day, the kohanim don't do
the long tune on shalosh regalim (assumedly because they duchen every day
so bad dreams can be covered immediately.) Question: So when do you say the
ribbono shel olam in Israel if you have a bad dream (meaning, when would
you have enough time during Birchat Kohanim to do so)?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180223/c454dd3d/attachment-0001.html>

I'm deep into the sugya of gezel akum. One question I have is a very simple
one on the basic source found in Sanhedrin 113a. Why does the gemara quote
2 drashot-one by Rabbi Akiva, a 3rd-generation Tanna, and one by Rav Huna,
a 2nd-generation amora? The Rosh gives a reason for why both drashot might
be needed (not overly satisfying to me) but doesn't address the timing
issue.
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180223/3e02e613/attachment-0001.html>

https://members.bib-arch.org/biblical-archaeology-review/44/2/7

They found a seal, not far from where they found Chizqiyahu haMelekh's,
in the ofel by Har haBayis.

It reads
_____ (too broken to read, might even be a picture)
LYShYH?
NBY

They're assuming / hoping the mangled letter on the first line is a
vav and an alef on the broken off corner of the second, to read
...
LeYashayah[u]
Nav[i]

Given the letters, and the likelihood it was left in royal precincts in
the right era, there is reason to be optimistic.

Or, as the article's title asks, "Is This the Prophet Isaiah's Signature?"

An e-friend of mine quipped: Now I went them to find evidence of the 2nd
Isaiah!



RYGB shared this on Facebook, and someone expressed skepticism on two
grounds. To paraphrase and answer, since I think they're the likely
skeptical responses:

1- How solid is the provenance? Was it really found incontravertibly alongside
   Chizqiyahu's?

I see no reason to ascribe non-professionalism to the archeologist.

I don't in general know the quality of the provenience (the in situ location
of the find) in the Ofel, but I do know that when they found Chizqiyahu's
bulla some months ago, this was a big deal. The find of the king's seal
wasn't itself the exciting part, they had a number of others. But this is
the first time where the location checked out.

So I think those in the field would consider it a given that Yeshaiah's
signet was actually in Chizqiyahu's environs. (Again, until we find reason
to start suspecting trickery.)

2- Is the final alef just wishful thinking? And who would sign their name
   "navi" even before their predictions become true? Isn't it gaavah?

Nevu'ah is about "giving mussar", not predictions.

But in any case, it was a job in the royal court. Someone had to be there
to "speak truth to power", and in Hashem's name no less! For example,
"Udevar H' hayah el Gad hanavi, chozeih David, leimor" (Shemuel 2 24:1,
after the mid-pasuq pesuchah). Gad is "chozeih David".

And our good kings actually accept the rebuke! David does teshuvah after
Nasan yells at him for Uriah's death. The office is a way to temper some
of the corruptive influence of holding power.

So, if Yeshaiah were "chozeih Chizqiyah", then including his professional
title lacks the problem of ascribing bravado to Yeshaiahu haNavi.

That said, the navi himself does not describe himself that way.
1:1 reeads "asher chazah al Yehudah viYrushalaim biymei Uziyahu, Yosam,
Achaz, Yechizqiyahu, malkhei Yehudah." "About" "in the days of". Similarly
every other occurance of "*MLK*" in a Bar Ilan search of Yashaiah. "Vayhi
biymei Achaz ben Yosam ben Uziyahu meleakh Yehudah..." Things said to
kings, and about kings ("asher chazah al"), or during the reign of a king.

(BTW, "*MLK*" matches "melekh" and "hamelekh", even though my kaf was
kefufah, and the matched one is peshutah. Also the q'ri of "MLKM" for
"Mah lakhem" at 3:15. Antoher BI search tip, "*" will match any piece
of a word.)

My "if" is a guess, a possibility. After all, he has nevu'os in the seifer
that aren't to the melekh. Even if it was his profession, that's not
key to understanding his book. So maybe he didn't bother to spell it out.


And the word could be something else. But that would mean there was another
personal with a name that begins Yeshaiah who was a member of Chizqiyahu's
court or whose signet somehow otherwise ended up among their things.

I think the exciting possibility is the most plausible.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

31:16-17  V'shomru...  The Children of Israel shall observe the Sabbath...it is a sign forever that in six days 
God made the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed...
 
The six days of Creation remind us that we were created for this world.  
But the Sabbath reminds us that the world was created for us.  
Each day is a step closer to the ultimate realization of life's profound meaning.

The Talmud says that before Adam sinned, his radiance was like the radiance of God, 
but after he sinned, his radiance became darkened. This is why there is the obligation
of lighting the Shabbos candles. The sin of Adam and Eve extinguished the light of the world
and lighting the Shabbos candles symbolically rekindles the light of the world for at least a day.


Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. 
Everyone is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody. 
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
Anonymous

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180225/a03b6349/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)