Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 128

Tue, 07 Nov 2017

• 1. Re: TEXTUAL JUDAISM AND THE LIVING TORAH (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: TEXTUAL JUDAISM AND THE LIVING TORAH (Zev Sero)
• 3. VAYERA ? WHO IS HKBH TALKING TO? (Sholom Simon)
• 4. Re: chopsticks (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Avraham A Cooked, Angels Ate - Bassar BeChalav (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 6. Re: Avraham A Cooked, Angels Ate - Bassar BeChalav (Zev Sero)
• 7. VAYERA ? WHO IS HKBH TALKING TO? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. HKBH Rebukes Avraham for Sara's Shortcomings (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Re: Questioning Authority (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: eitz hachaim (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: A Great Name (Micha Berger)
• 12. Gilgul Hanefesh (Richard Wolberg)
• 13. Re: Gilgul Hanefesh (Lisa Liel)
• 14. 17 Marcheshvan (Micha Berger)

On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:38:21PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 02/11/17 08:12, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:>The Beit Yosef emphasizes that the custom of the entire world
:>contradicts the Rosh's ruling.

: Not the entire world.  The Rosh himself reported that he was
: gratified to discover, while travelling through Provence on his way
: from Germany to Spain, that they did it the right way...

Are you disagreeing with the BY (no citation so I can't check
myself), with RJR's presentation of the BY?

Or, are we ignoring the fact that the Rosh lived well before the BY
and could have seen a Provincial minhag that had died by the
mechaber's time.

The BY could well be wrong. We have other examples of famous
rishonim and acharonim who didn't know some minhag of other
communities and thought regional norm was universal.

I just want to understand which of the above we're discussing.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle

On 03/11/17 08:44, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:38:21PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : On 02/11/17 08:12, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> :>The Beit Yosef emphasizes that the custom of the entire world
> :>contradicts the Rosh's ruling.
> 
> : Not the entire world.  The Rosh himself reported that he was
> : gratified to discover, while travelling through Provence on his way
> : from Germany to Spain, that they did it the right way...
> 
> Are you disagreeing with the BY (no citation so I can't check
> myself), with RJR's presentation of the BY?

Not disagreeing so much as pointing out that "the entire world" doesn't 
mean quite that.    In fact the Tur on which the BY is commenting also 
quotes his father's report about the minhag in Provence.   And the BY 
further quotes the Rosh that "uchvar nahagu gam kein biktzat mekomot" to 
start on the 7th.   So later when he says "shelo nitkablu divrei haRosh, 
vechol ha`olam lo nahagu kein", I think this must be understood as a 
generalization, just as we do when we say "der velt" does this or that, 
and we clearly don't mean literally everyone.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Rabbi Meir G. Rabi notes/asks:

>Sara laughs [18:12]  Gd is not happy
>
>[18:13] HKBH confronts Avraham, ?Why did Sara laugh off the blessing 
>that she have a child? Am I not able to arrange she give birth? I 
>assure you, I?ll be back and you?ll see she will have a child.?
>
>But why is HKBH asking this of Avraham?  Does HKBH expect Avraham to 
>be able to explain?
>
>It seems this question is really an indictment of sorts.
>
>Is Avraham being blamed for Sara?s weakness?
>
>Why does Avraham confront [18:19] Sara? He does not doubt what HKBH 
>has told him?
>
>And when Sara denies it, why does Avraham rebuke her? Is it 
>Avraham?s responsibility to ensure she confesses?

I just heard a shiur (YUTorah!) from RHS who addressed this.  He also 
threw in the question: why is H" telling loshon harah to Avraham?

RMF brings that In the Gemara (somewhere) it says that it's 
permissible to tell loshon harah to the subject's rebbe, so that the 
rebbe can give tochacha or musar to the subject, and RMF (or RHS) 
says that's what's happenning here (viewing Avraham as Sarah's rebbe, 
in a way).

-- Sholom

.

R" Saul Guberman asked:

> Is it permissible to break apart chopsticks on shabbat at the
> meal to eat your sushi?  Someone claimed it is makeh b'patish
> and just use a fork or stab with the chopsticks still
> together.  Others thought that tzorech ochel nefesh might
> allow them to be broken and used, as it is all disposable
> anyway.

Rabbi Doniel Neustadt raises a similar question at
https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-beshalach/  I
would think that the situations are similar; even if they aren't
identical, looking up the sources may help to find the answer about
chopsticks.

> Question: Leben or yogurt cups sometimes come attached to each
> other and must be separated along a perforated line before
> they can be eaten individually. Is that permitted to be done
> on Shabbos?
>
> Discussion: Contemporary poskim debate whether or not it is
> permitted to separate attached yogurt or leben cups from each
> other. Some consider it a violation of Mechatech and Makeh
> b?patish[21] while others hold it is permitted altogether[22].
>
> 21. Rav Y.S. Elyashiv (Orchos Shabbos 12:12, Me?or ha-Shabbos,
> vol. 2, pg. 551).
>
> 22. Rav S.Z. Auerbach (Orchos Shabbos 12:18. note 31, Shulchan
> Shelomo 314:13-3).

Akiva Miller

 1] no one disputes that the Meshech Chochmah says what he says

2] there are many explanations to resolve the meat and milk issue, we are
not disputing them, just explaining one of them

3] there is [surprisingly] no Issur of Maris Ayin preventing cooking some
iterations of BP meat with milk - the proof is from this episode as
presented by this Medrash and explained by the MChochma.

4] The decree that after the BP has stood up, Hifris AGKarka, it requires
Shechitah [and presumably is also Assur to cook with milk] does not apply
to a BP that is found as a non fully gestated, Lo KaLu Lo Chadashav.

5] Avraham did not Shecht it - on the contrary he directed Yishmael to
prepare it - Furthermore, because it was a BP it did not require Shechita
which is why he could direct Yishmael to kill it, and there was also no
problem of Bassar SheNisAlem Min HaAyin.

6] Indeed, even had the angels eaten plain meat Shechted by AAvinu, there
would have been adequate proof that they accepted his status of Kedushas
Yisrael, it just so happened that AAvinu wanted to serve his visitors a
delicacy, Beef Stroganoff.

7] I really do not know why I assumed it was a goat

On 04/11/17 08:45, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
> 6] Indeed, even had the angels eaten plain meat Shechted by AAvinu, 
> there would have been adequate proof that they accepted his status of 
> Kedushas Yisrael, it just so happened that AAvinu wanted to serve his 
> visitors a delicacy, Beef Stroganoff.

Except that Rashi explicitly says otherwise, that the delicacy he served 
was tongue in mustard, for which he needed *three* animals.   There is 
no hint of any cooking in milk.   The Meshech Chochma needs a mokor for 
this.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Furthermore, HKBH is transgressing Lashon Hara by disclosing to Avraham
that Sara laughed.

It is pretty clear that Sara's indiscretion was disclosed to Avraham
because it was necessary for AAvinu to know, as we see, he rebuked Sara
for laughing.

Avraham was responsible for this shortcoming of Sara - this properly
explains all these Qs

HKBH expected Avraham to respond as he did.

The question is really an indictment of sorts.

Avraham is blamed for Sara's indiscretion?

Therefore, Avraham confronts [18:19] Sara.

And when Sara denies it, Avraham rebukes her. It is Avraham's
responsibility to ensure she confesses.

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

continuing from prev post -
> Sara laughs [18:12]  Gd is not happy

> [18:13] HKBH confronts Avraham,
...

Preserving harmony [Yevamos 65b, in this case between Araham and Sara]
compels HKBH to lie to Avraham [HKBH reported that Sara said, "I am
too old to have children", when in fact she said, "my master is old"]
and yet HKBH, rather than remaining silent to preserve peace, reports
Sara's indiscretion to Avraham.

Furthermore, aside from being likely to cause strife between Avraham and
Sara, this report is a horribly demeaning Lashon Hara. Scoffing at HKBH's
ability to grant her a child, in spite of it being uttered by what might
easily have been described as a foolish visitor, is a blight upon Sara
which HKBH held against her. And she understood the correctness of the
criticism and felt shamed, as we see that she [apparently] instinctively
and immediately denied it [18:15]

It seems clear that HKBH reported this to Avraham, rather than directly or
indirectly to Sara, not only to correct Sara but also to rebuke Avraham.
HKBH was criticising Avraham for Sara's shortcoming.

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 09:41:32AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I have always felt that it is (or ought to be) possible and permissible to
: *question* authority without challenging or rejecting authority...

I would have said "to ask questions", as to me "to question" something
is indeed to challenge. But that's just an English or perhaps English
dialect issue.

What's nice is that we don't have this issue in halachic jargon: there
is a clear difference between
1- a she'eilah, asking for information, ibua'ei lehu / miba'ei
on the oe hand, and
2- a qushya ("qasha"), tiyuvta, meisivei, where we challenge the given
statement.

....
: But frequently, the truth is that the parent has very good reasons for what
: he says. It's just that he's unable to put those reasons into clear words.
: He can't even explain it to himself in simple terms, because it is simply a
: gut feeling that he has, based on experience and intuition, he sees that
: this is the action or inaction which must be followed in this particular
: situation.

As far as I can tell, this is what RYBS calls "mesorah", and the same
notion of "mesorah" RHS invokves when arguing against ordaining women
or women leading inessential portions of davening?

(As opposed to those who think of "mesorah" as referring to mimeticism.)

: I think this is analogous to Torah leaders and Torah followers. When the
: leaders tell the followers what to do, or what to avoid, it is entirely
: reasonable for the followers to request explanations from the leaders. This
: is especially so, if the explanation will help them comply with the
: directive, or teach them how to apply the directive to other situations.
: But these requests must be made respectfully, carefully, and only up to a
: certain point.

We ask a poseiq a she'eilah, not a qushya. And -- as noted by the Maharal
in the Beer haGolah RMRabi and I beat to death -- we should be expecting
to understand rather than blindly follow.

The limit you speak of comes for the fact that a feel for how the halakhah
ought to be inherently can't be articulated.

To repply R/Dr Moshe Koppel's metaphor for halakhah, as much as halakhah
runs like a legal system, it also works like a language. People who only
know English as a second language could know rules of conjugation, but
it takes serious immersion in the language to know what kinds of poetic
license works and what violates the limits of acceptible English. We
native speakers know what "sounds right". But if an immigrant were to
ask why "the red big ball" sounds weird but "the big red ball" sounds
normal, how many of us could explain it? And if we did come up with
an explanation, isn't it a post-facto construct rather than the more
by-feel way the determination was really made?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 05:41:04PM -0400, hankman via Avodah wrote:
: What exactly was the eitz hachaim all about. The simple pshat doesn't
: make any sense. ...                            Kodem hacheit he was not
: a bar misah so he had no need of it, after the cheit he was prevented
: from accessing it! So when would it ever be useful to Adam?

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:51:28AM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: I don't understand the question.  He was prevented from accessing it
: *because* of the cheit.  Had he not sinned, you say he would have had
: no need for it, but who is to say that its only function was to make
: him live forever.....

Note how the Torah is also called "eitz chaim (hi lamachaziqim bahh)."

So I think Lisa's notion that the eitz chaim likely had another function
is quite probable. Likely its primary function was to provide the da'as
that would lead to arichas yamim. Like the Torah does -- even if its
arichas yamim appears not to be in olam hazeh.

There is also the idea that there was only one tree in the iddle of the
garden, an eitz hachaim upon which grew a branch bearing the peri eitz
hada'as tov vara. Or maybe that the eitz vhaim was the rooots from which
the eitz hadaas grew. I don't know -- I only heard about it second-hand
(multiple times) by people quoting "sifrei qabbalah" (as though that
counts as a citation).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 04:48:29PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: One of the implicit criticisms of Migdal Bavel was that they wanted
: to make a name for themselves. Then, at the beginning of Lech L'cha,
: H' tells Avram that he will make his name great.

: There must be something there... anybody have any thoughts?

First question... If all of humanity was participating (minus two
epople -- Avraham and Ashur), who exactly were they trying to build
up their reputation for?

Whereas after the Haflagah, man was split into numerous communities,
the notion of being known broadly makes sense. And if you want to
spread your teachings, such fame is useful.

Yes, I think the contrast is meaningful -- the people who got caught
up in ego to the point of irrationality wanted fame for its own
sake. After all, it had no logical value in their context. Whereas
Afraham was granted fame as part of Hashem aiding his success, and
fame is positive.

It's not a question, it's the point.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

I have heard many conflicting opinions about our belief in 
reincarnation. I hope and pray it is not true. ?One life is enough!?
Is there a definitive Jewish belief?
I have even heard some believe in ?Transmigration of the Soul? which
is even more scary. As an impressionable kid, I once had a rabbi tell me
that if you don?t wash netilat yadayim prior to eating, you will come back 
as a dog.  

The following is an excerpt by an article in
the Aish.com Newsletter by Sara Yoheved Rigler.

there are hints to reincarnation in the Bible and early commentaries (1), while in Kabbalah, 
Judaism?s mystical tradition, overt references to reincarnation abound. The
Zohar, the basic text of Jewish mysticism (attributed to Rabbi Shimon Bar
Yochai, a 1st century sage) 
assumes gilgul neshamot [the recycling of souls] as a given, and the Ari,
the greatest of all Kabbalists, whose 16th teachings are recorded in, Shaar
HaGilgulim, 
traced the reincarnations of many Biblical figures. While some authorities,
such as Saadia Gaon (10th century) denied reincarnation as a Jewish
concept, from the 17th century onward, 
leading rabbis of normative Judaism, such as the Gaon of Vilna and the Chafetz Chaim (2), referred to gilgul neshamot as a fact.

        (1)? See Deut. 33:6, and Targum Onkeles and Targum Yonosson on that verse. Also see Isaiah 22:14.
        (2)? Mishnah Berurah 23:5 and Shaar HaTzion 622:6



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On 11/7/2017 9:30 AM, Richard Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
...
> Is there a definitive Jewish belief?
> I have even heard some believe in "Transmigration of the Soul" which
> is even more scary. As an impressionable kid, I once had a rabbi tell me
> that if you don't wash netilat yadayim prior to eating, you will come 
> back as a dog.

As I understand it, gilgul neshamot is not the same as the eastern idea 
of reincarnation, where one person's soul literally incarnates again in 
another body and lives another life.  Rather, on a spiritual level, the 
soul of one person can "match" the soul of someone who lived 
previously.  Either by harmony or dissonance, to use a musical metaphor.

In Seder HaDorot, it talks incessantly about how some person or other 
was the gilgul, or tikkun, of a previous person.  But it sometimes has 
multiple people as the gilgul or tikkun of a previous person, which 
makes more sense given the "match" concept.

Kabbalistically, at least according to R' Aryeh Kaplan, the spiritual 
dimension is one of similarities and differences.  Two things that are 
more similar are "closer" and two things that are less similar are 
"further apart".  So if your soul is very similar to that of someone who 
lived before, you could have such a "match". You might even dream 
memories that the previous soul experienced. That doesn't make you that 
person.  And since the state of a person's soul changes throughout their 
life, their "match" to someone who lived previously can come and go as well.

To give an example, Seder HaDorot says that Rabbi Akiva was the 
gilgul/tikkun of Zimri ben Salu.  The 24K Bnei Shimon who died in the 
plague following Zimri's actions match the 24K talmidim of Rabbi Akiva, 
for example.  But while Zimri took Kosbi b'issur, Rabbi Akiva married 
the wife of Tyrannus Rufus b'heter, after she converted. Hence restoring 
a balance that Zimri had violated.

I don't buy the "reincarnated as a dog" or "as a fish" stuff.  Those who 
do, I suppose they have on whom to rely, but you don't have to buy into 
it yourself.

(NB: While Googling to see if there was a website that talked about 
this, I found this article from Aish, which was very interesting. It 
included Shechem and Dina in the equation as well. 
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/97291469.html)

Lisa

Yesterday, the 17th Marcheshvan, was the anniversary of two events:

1- The rain of the mabul began; and
2- 2 Nov 1917, the day the British Foreign Secretary, Lord Alfred
   Balfour, sent the famous letter to Baron Lionel Walter
   Rothchild.

Anyone want to connect the dots between the two?

Two things I did notice:

- Both were first steps, far from the final yeshu'ah.

- Both were first followed by major destruction before anything positive
  could be seen from them.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke


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