Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 102

Fri, 18 Aug 2017

• 1. Re: Kiddush Shabbos Morning (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Cohen demanding a sold aliya (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Use of Stone Keilim During Bayis Sheini (Micha Berger)
• 4. Kuf-resh-aleph versus kuf-resh-heh (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: Kuf-resh-aleph versus kuf-resh-heh (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Kiddush Shabbos Morning (Daniel Israel)
• 7. Re: Cohen demanding a sold aliya (Daniel Israel)
• 8. More on Kiddush Shabbos Morning (Professor L. Levine)
• 9. IVF and the Rabbinate (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: Cohen demanding a sold aliya (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: IVF and the Rabbinate (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 01:36:12PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
:> Piskei Teshuvos (289:note 88) lists many Chasidishe Rebbes (including
:> the Chozeh from Lublin and the Yid HaKodesh) who held that the halacha
:> follows the Taz. They insisted on making Kiddush Shabbos morning on a
:> shot glass of schnapps to emphasize this point. Everyone should follow
:> their minhag.

Regardless of the shei'ur, so this is perhaps tangential....

The AhS talks about the difficulty in obtaining real wine, the kashrus of
"wine" from soaked raisins, and thus the schnapps option.

I wonder if so many rabbeim would have insisted on making qiddush on
schnapps at all if wine were an affordable option where they lived.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

.
R' Ben Waxman asked:
> My Friday night beit knesset sells the Shabbat morning aliyot
> right after kabbalat Shabbat. In this beit knesset, none of the
> members are kohenim. Were a cohen to come to the beit knesset
> on Shabbat morning, would his right to the first aliya (the
> right not be embarrassed) over ride the sale? I would imagine
> no, a sale is a sale. Plus, why should the beit knesset lose
> money?

My first thought is that this is a great example of a question that
should be addressed to the rav of the beit knesset. There are so many
factors that need to be weighed against each other, such as how badly
the shul needs the money, and how many hurt feelings will be created
by giving the wrong answer.

As regards the comment "a sale is a sale" -- I'm not so sure. Sounds
like a "davar shelo ba laolam" to me. Especially since we are
considering the real possibility that a kohen guest might show up,
rendering the auction questionable.

Just my two grush.

Akiva Miller

See http://www.timesofisrael.com/2000-
year-old-stone-workshop-discovered-near-where-jesus-turned-water-into-wine<
/a>
or http://j.mp/2v1gxan

    The Times of Israel
    By Amanda Borschel-Dan August 10, 2017, 11:51 am
    2,000-year-old stone workshop discovered near where Jesus turned water into

    Only four Second Temple stoneware production centers have been
    unearthed in Israel

    Because it was immune to ritual impurity, the use of stoneware was
    rife among Jews during the Roman era
    ...

   A large 2,000-year-old Second Temple period chalkstone quarry and
   workshop was discovered at Reina in lower Galilee by a team of
   archaeologists headed by Dr. Yonatan Adler...

   A manmade chalkstone quarry cave was recently discovered between
   between Nazareth and the village of Kana. What is unique in this
   excavation is the additional find of a stoneware workshop -- one of
   only four in Israel.

   Although pottery was also in use during this period, archaeological
   digs around the region point to an uptick in stoneware during the
   Second Temple period -- likely for ritual purity reasons, as attested
   in the Talmud.

   "In ancient times, most tableware, cooking pots and storage jars were
   made of pottery. In the first century of the Common Era, however, Jews
   throughout Judea and Galilee also used tableware and storage vessels
   made of soft, local chalkstone," said Adler.
   ...

   "According to ancient Jewish ritual law, vessels made of pottery are
   easily made impure and must be broken. Stone, on the other hand, was
   thought to be a material which can never become ritually impure, and as
   a result ancient Jews began to produce some of their everyday tableware
   from stone," he said.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

.
At first, I was going to pose these nitpicky questions on our Mesorah list.
But then I found some answers, and I decided to share my journey with the
whole chevra. If it doesn't put you to sleep from boredom, please let me
know what you think. Thanks in advance.

Shmos 1:10 - Paro starts panicking over the Jewish Problem. First, they're
multiplying, and then, "ki sikrena milchama..."

1. What is the root of Sikrena? Kuf resh aleph, or kuf resh heh?

2a. If it is kuf resh heh - "if war happens" - then what is the aleph for?
Is this a kri/ksiv situation? Does anyone explicitly refer to it as a
kri/ksiv?

2b. If it is kuf resh aleph, then why is it that I can't find anyone
(Jewish or not) who translates it as "if they proclaim war"? Why does every
single translation and peirush render it as "if war occurs", or similar? Or
do you know of any exceptions that I couldn't find?

3. What form is this word? My guess is that it is Kal, future, 3rd person
feminine plural: "They(f) will...". That fits well with "proclaim", if
"they(f)" refers to the attacking nations. But if the root is kuf resh heh,
I don't know why the plural would be used. Is "milchama" some sort of
plural or collective noun?

Other relevant information:

RSR Hirsch says that "sikrena" is a plural form, and therefore "milchama"
is probably not the subject but the object. for the word's meaning, he
refers us to Yeshaya 41:22, where this same word occurs. But as I see it,
these words are not spelled the same: Where Shemos spells it with an aleph,
Yeshaya has a yud. (I suppose Rav Hirsch considers this difference
insignificant, but I'm not knowledgable enough to understand why.)

I did find one lone voice who says that the root of "sikrena" is
"read/call" and not "happen/occur". Namely, Mandelkern's Concordance.
Yeshaya 41:22 appears on 1047d, in the root kuf-resh-heh. But he places our
pasuk, Shemos 1:10, on 1043c, in the root kuf-resh-aleph.

Another data point from Mandelkern: His opinion is that "sikrena" in Shemos
1:10 is a third-person plural verb. This is different from the
second-person plural verb, which is spelled exactly the same, and appears
in Rus 1:20 and 1:21, and in the Concordance on 1042a. I suspect that
Mandelkern would endorse "*they* will proclaim war" as a correct
translation.

Finally, I tried a non-Jewish website devoted to translation issues.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7122.htm is based on the Brown-Driver-Briggs
concordance, and other similar sources. I probably could have gotten the
same information from Mandelkern, but seeing their English translation
on-screen made these examples jump out at me:

Bereshis 42:4 - [Yaakov] said, "Lest disaster *happen* [to Binyamin]."

Bereshis 49:1 - Yaakov said, "... I will tell you what will *happen* to you
at the end of days."

Vayikra 10:19 - Aharon told Moshe, "... such has *happened* to me..."

Devarim 22:6 - When you *happen* upon a bird's nest...

In all of the above, the Torah's word is spelled with a kuf-resh-ALEPH
root. I find myself forced to concede that there is strong evidence (dare I
call it "proof"?) that in addition to the usual meanings "read" and "call",
kuf-resh-aleph can also mean "happen".

Having said that, I was tempted to take this even farther. That page on
BibleHub brings a lot examples where they translate kuf-resh-aleph as
"meet". At first glance, I did not take it seriously; I felt that our
common translation as "call" was more appropriate. For example, Shemos 5:3.
where Moshe and Aharon tell Paro, "The God of the Hebrews nikra to us, so
let us go for three days..." In my mind, this meant "Hashem called to us",
and I rejected BibleHub's translation of "... has met with us." But then I
read ("happened upon"? pun intended!) ArtScroll's translation, which is
"...happened upon us." I was surprised by this, but I was even more
surprised when I saw RSR Hirsch on this pasuk, where he tells us to look at
Shemos 3:18, where he shows that these two roots (kuf resh aleph and kuf
resh heh) are indeed similar.

And so I conclude that it is entirely legitimate to translate Shemos 1:10
as "when a war happens".

Does all this teach us anything about the small aleph in Vayikra 1:1? I
leave that as an exercize for the reader.

Akiva Miller
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On 16/08/17 07:45, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If it is kuf resh aleph, then why is it that I can't find anyone (Jewish 
> or not) who translates it as "if they proclaim war"?

I don't think "proclaiming war" is something that can even happen in 
Hebrew.  One can call *for* war, but the lamed is necessary.  I can't 
think of any direct examples right now, but consider the parallel 
"vekarasa eleha leshalom".   On the other hand we do have "ukrasem deror".

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

I wonder if everyone agrees with the Machstzis Hashekel, i.e., would everyone agree that if you hold like the Taz the you can make kiddush on it?

I was startled by the conclusion until I realized that "their minhag"
refers to their own minhag, the the minhag of the Rebbes mentioned in the
previous sentence.  Still odd though, surely this is a psak halacha not a
minhag.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

> On Aug 15, 2017, at 7:36 AM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> 
> 
> Q. I often see people make Kiddush Shabbos day on a small shot glass
> of schnapps. Isn?t this an issue, since they are using less than a
> revi?is (approximately 3.3 oz. ? minimum amount for Kiddush)?
> (Subscriber?s question)
> A. The Taz (OC 210:1) writes that if one drinks an entire shot glass
> of schnapps in one sip, they are required to recite a bracha achrona
> (Borei Nifashos). Although on other beverages one only recites a
> bracha achrona if one drinks a full revi?is, Taz maintains that a shot
> glass of schnapps is equivalent to a revi?is of other drinks. This is
> because schnapps is strong and most people are unable to drink more
> than this amount in one sip. The Machtzis HaShekel (272:6) points out
> that following the logic of the Taz, one should be permitted to recite
> Kiddush Shabbos day on a shot glass of schnapps.
> 
> Most poskim disagree with the Taz. The Magen Avrohom (190:4), Chayei
> Adam (6:18), Mishnah Berurah (190:14), Aruch Hashulchan (483:3) all
> require a revi?is of schnapps for Kiddush. However, if one cannot by
> themselves drink a m?lo lugmav (half a revi?is, the mandatory minimum)
> of schnapps, they may share with others.
> 
> Piskei Teshuvos (289:note 88) lists many Chasidishe Rebbes (including
> the Chozeh from Lublin and the Yid HaKodesh) who held that the halacha
> follows the Taz. They insisted on making Kiddush Shabbos morning on a
> shot glass of schnapps to emphasize this point. Everyone should follow
> their minhag.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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From where does the shul get the right to sell the aliyah to a non-cohen in
the first place.  I would assume that what has actually been sold is the
right to choose who gets the aliyah, and in this case the unexpected cohen
guest is the only option.  If it is the aliyah itself which is sold then
the cohen should be able to claim the shul had no right to sell it, and the
choshen mishpat shailah is whether the shul or the buyer takes the loss.

Obviously just my opinion not meant to second guess the mara d'atra.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

> On Aug 14, 2017, at 3:06 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> My Friday night beit knesset sells the Shabbat morning aliyot right
> after kabbalat Shabbat. In this beit knesset, none of the members are
> kohenim. Were a cohen to come to the beit knesset on Shabbat morning,
> would his right to the first aliya (the right not be embarrassed) over
> ride the sale? I would imagine no, a sale is a sale. Plus, why should
> the beit knesset lose money?
> 
> If the cohen says "I am willing to pay whatever the Yisrael paid" would he then have the right to claim the aliya?
> 
> If it matters, the beit knesset is Yeminite.
> 
> Ben
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org

Please see the article sent to me by Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky that I have posted at

http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf


YL
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A work around for agunot wanting to have kids: Rav Yitzhaq Yosef* ruled 
that an IVF child isn't a mamzer in a case of a married woman having her 
egg fertilized with the sperm of a man who who isn't her husband.

Now an MK wants to use this psak to enable agunot to conceive via IVF 
and her kids won't have mamzerut problems (and have the treatment paid 
for by the state).



* Yes other rabbis have given this ruling but when the Chief Rabbi gives 
a psak it gives a stronger basis for a knesset member to propose a law.


See the article for more details (Hebrew): http://bit.ly/2uOmI6x



I can easily imagine Rav Yosef saying "My psak deals with procedural 
errors, not someone doing it intentionally." Would that have any effect 
to the actual din? I can't see how the rabbinate can give a legal 
objection based on "not wanting to have more yotomim". A single woman is 
allowed to get IVF.



Feminists of course could object that this is institutionalizing agunot.


Ben

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 03:25:19PM -0600, Daniel Israel via Avodah wrote:
: From where does the shul get the right to sell the aliyah to a non-cohen
: in the first place. I would assume that what has actually been sold is
: the right to choose who gets the aliyah, and in this case the unexpected
: cohen guest is the only option...

While I agree with that conclusion, the answer to your opening question
was in RBW's post:
:> My Friday night beit knesset sells the Shabbat morning aliyot right
:> after kabbalat Shabbat. In this beit knesset, none of the members are
:> kohenim. Were a cohen to come to the beit knesset on Shabbat morning...

They sold the aliyah on the presumption that, as usual. And in fact,
this "chazaqah" is so solid, RBS asked this eventually as a hypothetical;
the wording he thought of was "were ... to come" not "when ... does come".

Perhaps there was originally an al-tenai that simply people no longer
remember.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 04:52:59PM -0400, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
: A community member at one of the JEC (Elizabeth, NJ, USA) 9Av Mincha
: minyanim questioned my saying "y'yasheir kochacha" to one of the olim ...

: A quick comment on the apparently blessing vs. greeting (i.e. either/or)
: dichotomy quoted by RDrYL: "Shalom aleichem", like M'gilas Rus' "H'
: imachem // y'varechcha H'", is also a blessing, but the "problem" comes
: up when it's utilized as a greeting.

My rule: If said as a social pleasantry, or as a mindless playback of
a recording your parents / society taught you, it's a greeting.

But if you care more about whether the RBSO heard you than the person
you're saying it about, it's a berakhah.

And usually it's somewhere between those poles. With a skew toward the
greeing end.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 01:55:52PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: I can easily imagine Rav Yosef saying "My psak deals with procedural
: errors, not someone doing it intentionally." Would that have any
: effect to the actual din? I can't see how the rabbinate can give a
: legal objection based on "not wanting to have more yotomim". A
: single woman is allowed to get IVF.

I know that Beis Hillel eventually agreed with Beis Shammai, "ashrei
mi shelo nivra". But...

This child can't exist except as a "yasom". Is growing up fatherless
worse than never existing at all?

(I adapted that line from arguments about aborting a fetus that tests
positive for Downs. How many people with Downs hate their life so much
that they regret existing?)


: Feminists of course could object that this is institutionalizing agunot.

Marriage as described in Bereishis 1, perhaps. "Peru urevu umil'u es
ha'aetz". But the intimacy of Bereishis 2 is not adressed "... al kein
ya'azov ish es aviv ve'es imo, vedavaq be'ishto, vehayu lebasar echad".

My version of "the talk" with my boys started with these two pesuqim.
Explaining that relations are to serve these two functions.

And also, while birth control can address one of these two, extramarital
relations outside of "vedavaq be'isho" translate into exercises in
weakening that bond, that gift HQBH gave us. (Adding now, as this bit
would go over their heads: to approximate Adam Qadmon as humanity is
described before Adam and Chavah are made from one into two.)

And then, after establishing theological context, the talk continued
on the usual biological and psychological planes.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.


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