Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 100

Thu, 10 Aug 2017

• 1. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Richard Wolberg)
• 3. Re: Maris Ayin (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Lecture from Herzog Yemei Iyun (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Micha Berger)
• 9. The Kashrus of Braekel (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Zev Sero)
• 11. Hebrew manuscripts (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Erev Shabbos Kugel (Akiva Miller)
• 13. Re: Erev Shabbos Kugel (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Erev Shabbos Kugel (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Erev Shabbos Kugel (Ben Waxman)
• 16. Re: Erev Shabbos Kugel (????? ???)

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> And RMF was capable of telling a Bnei Akiva group that within
> their givens, they should be skipping tachanun on Yom haAtzama'ut.

Capable, yes. But did he actually do so?

Akiva Miller

R? Akiva wrote:
?.then why does it remain assur to say "Shalom Aleichem" in a
bathroom?

I would say the reason is that Shalom is one of God?s Names.

There was once a study done on people?s responses to ?How are you??
The respondent was supposed to answer in the negative. So instead of
saying ?fine, thank you,? the response would be either ?terrible,? ?awful,?
?not good,? etc. and guess what? Something like 90% would not even 
have realized the negative response. In other words, it is very perfunctory
when someone greets someone else in a normal setting. 

.
R' Meir G. Rabi wrote:

> we can bring any red blood looking liquid to the dining table
> and drink it, but not not fish blood. Fish blood is Kosher
> but it resembles animal or fowl blood which is not Kosher.
> What is the difference between any blood looking liquid and
> fish blood?

Maybe there's no difference, and we are *not* allowed to bring red
blood looking liquid to the dining table and drink it. Can you bring a
source that says we are allowed to?

> we can bring any white milk looking liquid to the dining table
> at which we are serving meat and drink it, but not not almond
> milk. What is the difference between any white milk looking
> liquid and almond milk?

Maybe there's no difference, and we are *not* allowed to bring white
milk looking liquid to the meaty dining table and drink it. Can you
bring a source that says we are allowed to?

I suspect that in both cases, you are noting the explicit prohibition
against doing these things and then you are presuming that these
prohibitions apply *only* to these specific foods. Then, having made
that presumption, you are asking why this distinction exists.

I suggest that this is an improper procedure. It would be more correct
to note the prohibition about these specific things, and then to *ASK*
whether the prohibition also applies to similar things. You might find
that the prohibition *does* extend to other things:

Example #2: Soy milk. When pareve coffee creamers first became easily
available, they were all soy-based. Yet the hashgachos warned us to
serve it only in the original container, precisely because of the
halacha you cite.

Example #1: Suppose you have a lightly-cooked steak in your plate.
Some "red blood looking liquid" is leaking out of the meat onto the
plate, and is absorbed into the mashed potatoes. There's no issur
against those potatoes. I'm pretty sure you can even mix it up into
the potatoes deliberately, or dip your bread into it and eat it. But
can you pour it out of the plate, into a glass and *drink* it? I don't
know.

Akiva Miller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzXeFDdchKY

One of the lectures at this year's Yemei Iyun at Herzog: Rav Bazaq (Har 
Etzion) and Rav Kashtiel (Yeshivat Eli) explain a story in Nach (Isha 
HaShunamite) each in his way. In doing so, they try to demonstrate the 
differences in approach between what is called "Tanach b'Gova Einayim" 
and "HaKav".

According to a story that I read about this lecture, this was the first 
time, after years and years of fighting (sometimes extremely fierce 
fighting) between proponents of each approach, that two people got 
together and gave a lesson together. There have been conferences where 
each side explains why their approach is good and the other side is 
wrong, but this is the first time that two people taught together.

The lectures are in conversational Hebrew. Besides the demonstration of 
the different approaches, the lectures themselves about the story are 
fantastic.

Ben

I personally know someone told by RMF that he can say Hallel on Yom 
haAtzamut.
Ben

On 8/6/2017 7:10 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
 > .
 > R' Micha Berger wrote:
 >
 >> And RMF was capable of telling a Bnei Akiva group that within
 >> their givens, they should be skipping tachanun on Yom haAtzama'ut.
 >
 > Capable, yes. But did he actually do so?
 >
 > Akiva Miller
\

: On 8/6/2017 7:10 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: > R' Micha Berger wrote:
: >> And RMF was capable of telling a Bnei Akiva group that within
: >> their givens, they should be skipping tachanun on Yom haAtzama'ut.

: > Capable, yes. But did he actually do so?

On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 07:20:25AM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: I personally know someone told by RMF that he can say Hallel on Yom
: haAtzamut.

I knew he was capable of it because I know several such stories.

<sarcasm>In the future, try to remember everything I wrote over all
of Avodah's 19 years' history. It would save me time.</sarcasm> <grin/>
I have indeed discussed this before, and absurdly wrote with the
assumption that people had some vague memory of learning something that
non-intuitive.

Including when RMF was asked by R Rakeffet, when his snif visited MTJ.
RARR's words (which I took as a close paraphrase), "Nu, if it's a yomtov
for you, then say Hallel; personally I don't."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I have indeed discussed this before, and absurdly wrote with
> the assumption that people had some vague memory of learning
> something that non-intuitive.

I was trying to come up with a snappy comeback, but the truth is that
I simply have a rotten memory. Or, perhaps, the non-intuitive stuff is
lost more easily, precisely because the anti-intuitiveness makes it
more difficult for the brain to reconstruct the chain of links.

We have said in the past, that in theory, when a gadol says, "This is
how it appears to me, given the Torah that I've internalized," that is
the greater Daas Torah. But in practice, others may find it difficult
to accept it, for lack of hearing the sources and logic.

> when RMF was asked by R Rakeffet, when his snif visited MTJ.
> RARR's words (which I took as a close paraphrase), "Nu, if
> it's a yomtov for you, then say Hallel; personally I don't."

I wish I had been aware of these shades of gray when I was younger.
Thank you for sharing.

Akiva Miller

On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 09:45:54PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: We have said in the past, that in theory, when a gadol says, "This is
: how it appears to me, given the Torah that I've internalized," that is
: the greater Daas Torah. But in practice, others may find it difficult
: to accept it, for lack of hearing the sources and logic.

I wouldn't call that DT at all. In my experience, DT refers to turning
to gedolei Torah for questions whose unknowns are not Torah. Typical
reasons given:

1- Absorbing all that Torah gives a mind a particular perspective and
ability more in line with retzon haBorei and Emes. (The usual Yeshivish
model.)

2- HQBH gives siyata dishmaya to the tzadiq who takes on caring for the
community. (The usual Chassidish model.)

3- Actually, there is no promise of doing any better than if one would
ask any other genius. BUT, with the loss of melukhah, leadership went to
Sanhedrin, and with the loss of the Sanhedrin, leadership goes to the
current rabbinate. It's an obligation in how to run a community, and
doesn't come with any special mechanism for success. (R' Dovid Cohen,
and RYBS's haTzitzi vehaChoshen, but RYBS apparently walked away from
DT in general when he left Agudah.)

#3 also differs in only justifying seeking DT on communal questions, and
not necessarily personal ones.

Here we're talking about halakhah.



So, I'd like to see if we can discuss the flipside of the discussion.

Rather than asking about the heteronomy of following gedolei haposqim
and why today's posqim seem to be failing getting that kind of fealty
from certain large segments of the masses, what about the autonomy end?

We have a very literate masses. More people can hit the primary sources
themselves. And for those who can't, oir lack the patience to, there are
more secondary and tertiary sources available in laaz than ever before.
Joys of computerized publishing, which has made producing a book cheaper
than ever.

In this world, how much autonomy should a sho'el assume for himself? Which
questions don't need asking? I presume a wide variety of opinion; I am
more interested in various rationales than in any particular answer.

What about the LOR -- do you have thoughts about when he should field
the question, and when he should punt to his own rav or to a gadol? And
does the ease at which anyone can be reached anywhere on the globe matter?

Universal education, telecom, the web's ability to provide instand
"research" are all bottom-up reasons our authority is being
decentralized. With little to do on those elegable to assume that
authority vs those of the past.

Although the ease of LH and motzi sheim ra about those rabbanim with
today's tech does enter into it to, r"l. If no one can become a navi
in his childhood neighborhood, today's world makes it harder and harder
to leave that effect.

My own feeling is that anyone of East European ancestry who was not
higi'ah lehora'ah who faces a new (for them) situation and doesn't get
a sense of consensus from the Chayei Adam, Qitzur, MB and AhS should be
asking a she'eilah.

Notice that shows my own bias against popularist guides. Unless said
guide was written by or recommended by one's poseiq as a viable resource.

And in terms of autonomy vs heteronomy, I would be seeking a poseiq who
(1) convinces me of the soundness of his reasoning; and (2) is willing to
work with my givens on things like hashkafah and beliefs about metzi'us,
where there are no rules of pesaq. As in RMF's pesaq about Hallel on
YhA.

(Tangent: Notice that there is little connection between pesaq and
hashkafah on this one. RYBS, the Zionist, adhered to a meta-halakhah in
which the barriers to saying Hallel are high, and came out against. As a
compromise for LORs whose mispallelim won't tolerate that, he would advise
the rav to pasqen that they omit the berakhah. Whereas RMF told Zionists
that leshitasam, it would be appropriate to say Hellal WITH a berakhah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

They're now importing to EY from Europe a new breed of chicken, the
braekel.

See http://www.baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=37
&;ARTICLE_ID=90778

   ...
   Members of the Eida Charedis' Vaad Shechita, prominent rabbonim and
   kashrus experts gathered in the home of Eida Chareidis Ravaad HaGaon
   HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita to determine if a new chicken, imported
   from Europe, has a kosher status. The discussion lasted for four hours!

   The new bird is called Braekel, and according to HaGaon HaRav
   Sternbuch, the bird is not kosher. However, in Bnei Brak, HaGaon
   HaRav Nissim Karelitz Shlita has ruled it is kosher.

   The chicken was raised in Europe in an area void of Jews and Rav
   Sternbuch feels it lacks the `mesora' required.

Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braekel> reports that it is
indeed Gallus gallus domesticus, actual chicken in scientific taxonomy.
And
    The Brakel is not cultivated for its meat, but merely for its
    egg-laying qualities. The breed is capable of producing 180 to 200
    white eggs a year.

This isn't remotely like the leghorn, a breed of chicken that has 2
"thumbs" and 2 other toes per claw, rather than the usual for kosher birds
-- 1 "thumb" and 3. And it's accepted as kosher, in fact, the source of
most of our eggs here in the states. But the breakel has normal simanim.

For that matter, according to some pesaqim about why we can eat turkey
(the context in which the kashrus of leghorn chickens most often comes up)
we even accept Meleagris gallopavo, turkey, as being within the mesorah
for chickens and they aren't even in the same genus!

Third wiki-note, commenting on the two subtypes of braekel chicken that
have since interbread into one:
    In the UK, USA and Australia, however, one can still find descendants
    of the Kempische Brakel under its old name 'Campine'. The Campine has
    evolved differently from the Brakel. The most noticeable difference
    is the hen-feathering of the rooster and the lower weight.

We in the US are treating a bird that evolved (nishtanah hateva, if
you prefer) from the breakel as kosher; no one requires checking if an
egg is campine or not. It's not even like the mesorah has been silent;
even if each breed of G. gallus domesticus needs it's own mesorah.

So, lo zakhisi lehavin RMS's reluctance.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 08/08/17 10:29, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I wouldn't call that DT at all. In my experience, DT refers to turning
> to gedolei Torah for questions whose unknowns are not Torah. Typical
> reasons given:
> 
> 1- Absorbing all that Torah gives a mind a particular perspective and
> ability more in line with retzon haBorei and Emes. (The usual Yeshivish
> model.)
> 
> 2- HQBH gives siyata dishmaya to the tzadiq who takes on caring for the
> community. (The usual Chassidish model.)
> 
> 3- Actually, there is no promise of doing any better than if one would
> ask any other genius. BUT, with the loss of melukhah, leadership went to
> Sanhedrin, and with the loss of the Sanhedrin, leadership goes to the
> current rabbinate. It's an obligation in how to run a community, and
> doesn't come with any special mechanism for success. (R' Dovid Cohen,
> and RYBS's haTzitzi vehaChoshen, but RYBS apparently walked away from
> DT in general when he left Agudah.)
> 
> #3 also differs in only justifying seeking DT on communal questions, and
> not necessarily personal ones.

#4 All true knowledge is in the Torah, and finding it is a matter of 
making non-obvious connections.  Therefore someone who has absorbed 
enough of it to do so can find the correct answer to anything, though he 
may not be able to explain how he did it.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

A database of ancient Hebrew manuscripts is now available at
http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLIS/en/ManuScript/
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.
This past October (in Avodah 34:130) I mentioned a practice that I've
seen growing in recent years, that of making a special kugel or
cholent, specifically for erev Shabbos, and sharing it with family and
friends in the last half hour or hour before shul on Friday evening.

I was learning about the issur of eating a large seudah on Erev
Shabbos, and I came across something that seems very relevant to that
practice. Form the Mechaber and Mishna Brura, it it clear that the
reason for this issur is to insure that we will have an appetite with
which to eat the Shabbos Seudah. But Beur Halacha 249 "Mipnei Kavod
Hashabbos" writes:

"The Pri Megadim takes the side that the reason is NOT because of
appetite. Rather, the reason is because it cheapens Kavod Shabbos,
making Erev Shabbos equivalent to the Shabbos day."

Akiva Miller

On 08/08/17 21:24, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> "The Pri Megadim takes the side that the reason is NOT because of
> appetite. Rather, the reason is because it cheapens Kavod Shabbos,
> making Erev Shabbos equivalent to the Shabbos day."

However, "to`ameha chayim zachu".  Tasting a little of the Shabbos 
dishes, as opposed to gorging oneself on them, is very much kevod 
Shabbos, to increase the anticipation, like a sneak preview.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Tue, Aug 08, 2017 at 09:24:34PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:           From the Mechaber and Mishna Brura, it it clear that the
: reason for this issur is to insure that we will have an appetite with
: which to eat the Shabbos Seudah. But Beur Halacha 249 "Mipnei Kavod
: Hashabbos" writes:

: "The Pri Megadim takes the side that the reason is NOT because of
: appetite. Rather, the reason is because it cheapens Kavod Shabbos,
: making Erev Shabbos equivalent to the Shabbos day."

These motives have a nadka mina. If one fills up Fri afternoon on food
they don't enjoy (perhaps it's healthful) or wouldn't eat in a formal
or celebratory setting, one is running afoul of the SA's sevara, but
not the PM's.

In contrast, having significant amounts of Shabbos-appropriate food but
not to the point of ruining one's appetite by the time maariv is over
would be a problem according to the PM, but not the SA's sevara.

Zev mentioned the case of tasting Shabbos food. The MB 250:2 uses the word
"lit'om". The Machzor Vitri cites a lost Y-mi and invokes "to'ameha chaim
zakhu" -- I think it's specifically te'imah. As in, less than a kezayis,
no berakhah, not really eating. (Which is why I wrote last paragraph about
"significant amounts".)

It has become common for yeshiva students to get "Thursday night chulent".
My son had a rebbe who made money Thu nights making chulent, potato and
Y-mi kugel, and other such Ashkenazi Shabbos foods, out of an apartment
near the Mir (Y-m). My son helped out.

BUT....

The whole point of chulent is to have hot food in Shabbos lunch, to
fulfill the obligation (SA OC 271:3) of making it the more special
meal. (Rather than Fri night dinner. See Shaarei Teshuvah #1.) The AhS
says one is not obligated to abstain from special Shabbos-lunch foods
Fri night. But I'm talking about Thu night, altogether before Shabbos.
O Seems to me that until someone finds a new "special Shabbos lunch food",
Thu night chulent ought to be prohibited!

Whereas one SHOULD just taste the chulent on Fri, and it is permitted
(but sub-optimal) to have some with Fri night dinner.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org        you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org   and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Aldous Huxley

Not just yeshiva guys. It has become a minor trendy thing for all sort 
of people to travel to Bnei Braq to get chulent.

On 8/9/2017 8:58 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> It has become common for yeshiva students to get "Thursday night chulent".
> My son had a rebbe who made money Thu nights making chulent, potato and
> Y-mi kugel, and other such Ashkenazi Shabbos foods, out of an apartment
> near the Mir (Y-m). My son helped out.

The Mishna Brura clearly states that the reason for tasting on erev shabbat is "kedei letaken". 
This refers to tasting during the cooking process  and does not fit with the whole kugel minhag.
Menucha 



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