Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 99

Sun, 06 Aug 2017

• 1. Tisha b'Av (Michael Feldstein)
• 2. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av ()
• 3. Issur Karet removed (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Ilana Elzufon)
• 5. Re: Issur Karet removed (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Micha Berger)
• 8. R. Eleazar Hakalir (Michael Feldstein)
• 9. Re: Tisha b'Av (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Michael Poppers)
• 11. Maris Ayin (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)

I am not sure how much he understands about Tisha B'Av,
but he does understand how people respond to him and I didn't want to risk
hurting his feelings.

Kol tuv,
Ilana

----------------------


even is one), I think you are doing OK!

-- 
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT

<https://www.ava
st.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=
sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<https://www.ava
st.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=
sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-a
ishdas.org/attachments/20170801/1e9b26c6/attachment.html>

 
From: Ilana Elzufon via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
"

>> There's a sweet teenager  on our block with a significant developmental
disability. He always greets me  with an enthusiastic hello and a smile when
I encounter him and is clearly  pleased when I respond. This afternoon he
greeted me as usual, and (without  having much time to think about it) I
greeted him back. I am not sure how  much he understands about Tisha B'Av,
but he does understand how people  respond to him and I didn't want to risk
hurting his feelings.  <<

Kol tuv,
Ilana

 
 
>>>>>>
What you did instinctively was the right thing to do.  Here is  what 
Eliyahu Kitov says in _The Book of Our Heritage_:
 
--quote--
 
It is prohibited to greet one's friend or acquaintance on Tisha B'Av, and  
it is even prohibited to say "Good morning."  If, however, one is greeted,  
he should answer in a low tone, in order not to arouse resentment."
 
--end quote--
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------   





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170801/0eed8a2b/attachment-0001.htm>

Someone in a Facebook discussion left me with a question. Going to Har 
Habayit is justified based on new information, ya'ani we now possess 
information which previous generations didn't have. Therefore we can 
certify that certain areas on Har Habayit are safe (yes, I understand 
that not everyone agrees with this position).

Are there any other examples of an issur karet or a potential issur 
karet (or even a  stam issur lav) that we now permit because we can 
determine where the issur actually is?

Ben

>
> RMB, quoting Rachel Levmore:
>    Alas, the last of the great Torah giants, those respected by Orthodox
>    Jewry the world-over even in cases of disagreement, have passed on.
>    Rabbis Moshe Feinstein, Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Menachem Schneerson,
>    Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, and Ovadiah Yosef are all gone


Maybe my memory is failing me, but I believe people were lamenting the lack
of universally recognized gedolim while Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadiah Yosef
were still alive and active. And if someone writes a similar article in
another few decades, perhaps some of today's great poskim will have been
added posthumously to the list...

Not to be cynical, but could it be that one of the factors that makes a
gadol universally recognized and accepted across Orthodoxy is that he is no
longer among the living?

Kol tuv,
Ilana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170802/9993751f/attachment-0001.htm>

On 02/08/17 00:51, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> Someone in a Facebook discussion left me with a question. Going to Har 
> Habayit is justified based on new information, ya'ani we now possess 
> information which previous generations didn't have. Therefore we can 
> certify that certain areas on Har Habayit are safe (yes, I understand 
> that not everyone agrees with this position).
> 
> Are there any other examples of an issur karet or a potential issur 
> karet (or even a  stam issur lav) that we now permit because we can 
> determine where the issur actually is?

*Any* case where we got new information.  Take the classic case of two 
pieces of fat, one shuman and one chelev, but one doesn't know which is 
which, and then one later finds out.  Before finding out both were 
assur; if one ate one of them beshogeg one brings an asham and the other 
piece remains assur.  Once the new information is acquired the shuman 
becomes permitted, and if it transpired that one ate the chelev one must 
now bring a chatas.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

.
R' Yitzchok Levine reposted from the OU:

> The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 554:41) rules that saying "Tzafra
> Tova" "Good Morning" is prohibited on Tisha B'Av, just as
> greeting one's friend is by saying "Shalom Aleichem"
> (Mechaber 554:20). ... ...
>
> Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l rules that Mazal Tov for a
> recent Simcha may be said on Tisha B?Av since it is
> considered a blessing and not a greeting. ... ...

I honestly don't understand the distinction that causes a "greeting"
to be assur, while allowing a "blessing" to be mutar. I would think
that "good morning" is a blessing. Aren't we praying that the other
person's morning will be a good one?

Perhaps the distinction is in the degree of kavana with which the
"good morning" is given and received. After all, if it were said as a
blessing, and received as one, then wouldn't we respond to the "good
morning" with something like "amen"? Perhaps we can prove "good
morning" to be a mere greeting, by pointing out that the response is
usually a perfunctory repeat of the words "good morning", rather than
anything serious. In this light, I confidently suggest that "How are
you?" is definitely a greeting, because usually no one expects a
response other than "okay" or "fine".

What of the Mechaber's halacha of "Shalom Aleichem"? Surely we would
agree that "Shalom Aleichem" is a blessing, no? After all, the
response to "Shalom Aleichem" is "Aleichem Shalom", and I suspect
(YMMV) that this is usually sincere rather than perfunctory.

This brings us to the very core of this halacha: RSZA is drawing a
line between greeting and blessing, and his halacha about Mazel Tov
makes no sense (to me) unless "Shalom Aleichem" is defined as the
prototypical *greeting*, and *not* a blessing. I can't imagine why
this would be so, unless the Mechaber already felt that "Shalom
Aleichem" was usually said perfunctorially. And that's sad.

Can anyone offer a different analysis of these various phrases?

Finally, it seems to me that "perfunctory" is a good summary of why we
can bring American money into a bathroom, despite the words "In God We
Trust" being on them: Those words have become a mere perfunctory
slogan, and are no longer a real statement of faith. But if we have
downgraded "Shalom Aleichem" from blessing to greeting with that same
logic, then why does it remain assur to say "Shalom Aleichem" in a
bathroom?

Do any other poskim make this distinction (either in Hilchos Tish'a
B'av, or in Hilchos Aveilus, or for that matter in Hilchos What Not To
Do Before Shacharis) between a greeting and a blessing? I'd love to
see it defined more clearly. (There was a point in my life when if I'd
sneeze and someone would say "God bless you", my response was "Amen".
But I stopped that fairly quickly as people tended to find my response
quite jarring. Maybe "God bless you" is also in the category of a
perfunctory greeting that should not be done on Tish'a B'av?)

Akiva Miller

On Wed, Aug 02, 2017 at 08:57:08AM +0200, Ilana Elzufon wrote:
: Maybe my memory is failing me, but I believe people were lamenting the lack
: of universally recognized gedolim while Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadiah Yosef
: were still alive and active...

In the US, recognition of R' Henkin and RMF were near-universal.

And RMF was capable of telling a Bnei Akiva group that within their givens,
they should be skipping tachanun on Yom haAtzama'ut.

In Israel, I think the most recent candidates are pre-Shas ROY and RSZA.
Although ROY's pesaqim are distinctly Sepharadi, I think it's commonly
accepted that Yabia Omer is one of the few sefarim written in my lifetime
people will be learning centuries from now.

My mention of pre-Shas points to something I think is one of the causes.
The search for "daas Torah" on political and societal matters makes
enemies and cynics from among those who disagree.

As for RSZA, RALichtenstein notes that he posessed a gedulah different
in kind, not just degree [inevitable nisqatnu hadoros], than those we've
looked up to since. I highly recommend "Im Da'at Ein, Manhigut Minayin?"
<http://upload-community.kipa.co.il/1229201133629.pdf>. In it RAL defends
da'as Torah as a doctrine, but questions if anyone since RSZA has been
qualified to have it.

To quote my own pitgam from past posts:
    A gadol is tall enough to see over our fences.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

Yesterday during the fast, I was reading about R. Eleazar Hakalir, and was
struck by the fact that historians aren't sure when he lived, with some
saying he lived during Mishnaic times and others saying he lived as late as
the 11th century. I realize that pinpointing dates during this time period
is difficult, but a 900 year swing seems very unusual.  Is anyone familiar
with any recent papers or articles that attempts to zero in on the real
date when this poet lived? Any additional info appreciated.



-- 
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170802/d33f201c/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:34:56PM -0400, Michael Feldstein via Avodah wrote:
:> I am not sure how much he understands about Tisha B'Av,
:> but he does understand how people respond to him and I didn't want to risk
:> hurting his feelings.

: I applaud your actions, Ilana. And if this is you worst sin (assuming it
: even is one), I think you are doing OK!

I am wondering whether cheerfully (rather than pro-forma, yotzei-zain,
replying so as not to offend) greeting someone in this situation despite
9 beAv is an instance of huterah or dekhuyah. (Thus overanalyzing your
parenthetic remark.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

?A community member at one of the JEC (Elizabeth, NJ, USA) 9Av Mincha
*minyanim* questioned my saying "*y'yasheir kochacha*" to one of the *olim*
(FWIW, I was the *bal qorei*) and, a few min.s later, brought to the *bimah*
an Artscroll-*dinim* paragraph (from the back of its 9Av *siddur*) about
not greeting someone; my response, as you might guess, was that "*y'yasheir*
/*yeeshar kochacha*" was not a greeting.

A quick comment on the apparently blessing vs. greeting (i.e. either/or)
dichotomy quoted by RDrYL: "*Shalom aleichem*", like M'gilas Rus' "*H'
imachem* // *y'varechcha H'*", is also a blessing, but the "problem"? comes
up when it's utilized as a greeting.

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170804/6ec1ac3f/attachment-0001.htm>

we can bring any red blood looking liquid to the dining table and drink it,
but not not fish blood. Fish blood is Kosher but it resembles animal or
fowl blood which is not Kosher.
What is the difference between any blood looking liquid and fish blood?

we can bring any white milk looking liquid to the dining table at which we
are serving meat and drink it, but not not almond milk.
What is the difference between any white milk looking liquid and almond
milk?

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170806/0ff5a069/attachment-0001.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)