Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 98

Tue, 01 Aug 2017

• 1. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Decentralizing Authority (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: a matter of doubt? (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Math behind kulan chayav (Micha Berger)
• 6. Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Menuchah Schwat)
• 11. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Micha Berger)
• 13. Kinos: Hashem as Spaceman? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Tisha B'Av, Greetings - Mazel Tov on Tisha B'Av (Ilana Elzufon)

My reaction to the article was that we get the leadership we want.  Given
the surrounding culture's focus on individual autonomy I doubt that any
previous generation "universally recognized gedolim" would be so recognized
today,	even by other "gedolim" 

Kt
Joel rich
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On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 06:38:18AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
: The Rambam certainly believes that some midrashim are factual and
: historical...

But not the fantastical ones.

Zev and I are arguing over two things:

1- What that includes. Zev believes that the inclusion of miracles does
not make a medrash fantastical. And in fact to believe so be apiqursus.
(Actually, Zev said the believer would be an apiqoreis; but the question
whether every believer in apiqursus is necessarily an apiqoreis is far
afield. So I'll still to this less controversial subset of his claim.)

I disagree. The Rambam associates nissim with nevu'ah. Someone who
lacks the yedi'ah to get one isn't going to be around to witness
the other. Therefore, aggadic stories of miracles placed after Tanakh
are fantastical. While Hashem could still in principle perform nissim,
the Rambam believes He wouldn't. (Even when the story is told of a member
of chazal and their level of ruach haqodesh.)

2- Is there a default? Zev understands that the default is to take a
medrash historically, unless it must be ruled out.

Again, I disagree. Medrashim are described as metaphors and riddles. The
story and its historical content just isn't an issue. You can't assume
anything about a medrash being historical or ahistorical qua medrash.
A good bit of history and a good tall tale can be used equally well for
teaching by metaphor. Implying, you would need outside reason to assume
one or the other.

Which is how the Rambam then says that if the story doesn't fit how
the world works physically, metaphysicall or theologically -- ie
what that translation I googled up called "fantastic" -- insisting its
historical when it can't be is silly.

So:
: Since that's the case there, one could reasonably assume that there are
: other midrashim he also takes to be factual, so I can't see how you could
: attribute to the Rambam a position of all midrashim being non-literal.

Be happy, no one in this conversation does.

In my understanding of Zev's view, the Rambam says that any medrash
that isn't impossible (and nissim are possible) should be assumed to
be historical.

In my view, wondering about the historicity of the story misses the whole
point of medrash. But if the story does not fit the way Hashem runs the
universe -- which according to the Rambam would include miracle stories
happening after Malakhi, and many of the stories before -- assume it
is ahistorical.

: early life as a historical narrative (in the old fashioned sense) at
: the beginning of Hilchos AZ. That material is not brought there for
: any other reason than to understand the historical facts.

The Rambam there has outside reason to believe that medrashic description;
it fit what the Nabatean Agriculture implied abot the birth of their
religion.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

True, especially in the MO/DL world. The site had an article a few 
months ago about how the MO/DL simply aren't looking for gedolim or they 
define the role of a gadol in way that strips him of much of this 
supposed authority.

Ben

On 7/28/2017 10:19 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> My reaction to the article was that we get the leadership we want. 
> Given the surrounding culture's focus on individual autonomy I doubt
> that any previous generation "universally recognized gedolim" would be
> so recognized today,  even by other "gedolim"

.
R' Joel Rich asked:
> From ?Religion Within Reason? by Steven Cahn: ?To have
> faith is to put aside any doubts, and doing so is sometimes
> beneficial, because doubt may be counter productive . . .

It depends on what he means by "putting aside" one's doubts.

If "putting aside" means that one does have doubts, but denies this
fact, and acts as if his faith was complete, this is unhealthy,
counter-productive, and in general, A Bad Thing. It is comparable to
one who feigns humility; the odds of an eventual implosion are too
high.

Rather, one must be honest about his doubts or questions, and work on
resolving them.

Akiva Miller

"Too good to be true: when overwhelming evidence fails to convince."
Lachlan J. Gunn, et al.
Proceedings of The Royal Society A. To be published
Paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1601.00900
Magazine article on said paper (H/T R/Dr Josh Backon):
    https://m.phys.org/news/2016-01-evidence-bad.html


This paper focuses on the case of identifying a criminal in a police
line-up, archeological evidence, and crypography testing, but I'll just
use the first as an example. Sometimes a line-up is like picking out
an apple out of a group of bananas. But usually, there is measurable
probability of error. Whether it's 48% for a criminal who runs through
the crime scene or the probability of mistaking one's kidnapper, there
is always some probability of error.

Now, what's the probability that no one makes that error? If 10 people
unanimously identify the same person, is it more likely that no one
made the rror, or that there is a systemic bias leading people to
select the same member of the line-up?

This paper shows the math (and has plots for various probabilities of
error). It takes far fewer people than you'd think before a unanimous
finding becomes suspicious.

And the paper even cites the din as precedent:
    However, this is not necessarily the case and more confirmations can
    surprisingly disimprove our confidence that the defendant has been
    correctly identified as the perpetrator. This type of possibility was
    recognised intuitively in ancient times. Under ancient Jewish law
    [13], one could not be unanimously convicted of a capital crime --
    it was held that the absence of even one dissenting opinion among
    the judges indicated that there must remain some form of undiscovered
    exculpatory evidence.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The following is from today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 554:41) rules that saying "Tzafra Tova" "Good
Morning" is prohibited on Tisha B'Av, just as greeting one's friend is by
saying "Shalom Aleichem" (Mechaber 554:20). I am attending a Bris on Tisha
B'Av. May I say "Mazal Tov" to the baby's father? If I meet a sick person
on Tisha B'Av, may I wish him a "Refuah Shleimah" (a full recovery)? Are
these also prohibited forms of greeting?


A. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt"l rules that Mazal Tov for a recent
Simcha may be said on Tisha B'Av since it is considered a blessing and not
a greeting (Dirshu M.B. Beiurim and Musofim 554:63 citing Halichos Shlomo
Bein HaMitzorim Vol. 15 Orchos Halacha 30). However, if at all possible,
one should wait for a different day to express this Mazal Tov (Chut Sheini
Vol. 2 p. 327).

Our minhag is to perform a Bris on Tisha B'Av after the Kinos are
completed, even if it is before Chatzos (mid-day), because of Zerizim
makdimim l'Mitzvos, those who serve Hashem with alacrity, do mitzvos as
quickly as possible (Mechaber, Rama 559:7 and Mishna Berurah ibid s.k. 26).
Rav Shlomo Zalman was of the opinion that one can certainly say "Mazal Tov"
at the Bris even before Chatzos (ibid). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l however
rules that the Mazal Tov for the Bris should only be said after Chatzos
(Dirshu M.B. ibid citing Shmaitza D'Moshe p. 431).

Although "Sholom Aleichim" should not be said to an Avel (one who is in
mourning), the Gesher HaChaim (21:67:7) permits wishing "Refuah Shleima" to
an Avel who is ill, since this is considered a blessing and not a greeting.
For the same reason it is permitted on Tisha B'Av to wish a "Refuah
Shleima" to a person who is ill (Dirshu M.B. ibid).



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On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:48pm GMT, Professor L. Levine quoted today's
OU kosher Halacha Yomis:
: Q. The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 554:41) rules that saying "Tzafra Tova"
: "Good Morning" is prohibited on Tisha B'Av, just as greeting one's friend
: is by saying "Shalom Aleichem" (Mechaber 554:20)...

I'm going to use this to share the quick thought in my most recent blog
post:

    The last Tishah beAv will end with us rushing to finally get to say
    "Hello!" to our shul-mates the way in years past we rushed to the
    table in the back with the orange juice and rugelach.

Tzom qal!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 31/07/17 13:24, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>      The last Tishah beAv will end with us rushing to finally get to say
>      "Hello!" to our shul-mates the way in years past we rushed to the
>      table in the back with the orange juice and rugelach.

The last Tishah BeAv?!  Perhaps you meant to write the last time that 
day is a fast rather than a yomtov.  Though we still hold out hope that 
that was last year.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 02:14:58PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: The last Tishah BeAv?!  Perhaps you meant to write the last time
: that day is a fast rather than a yomtov...

That was obviously my intent.

HOWEVER...

We call the month Av as a zikaron of Galus Bavel and the subsequent
ge'ulah.

So, MAYBE when this date becomes a holiday, we'll be calling it
Tish'ah beYuli or Tish'ah beOgust. After all, a commemoration of
the ge'ulah after Galus Edom would be far more compelling.

(I mentioned this to someone after Maariv, and he suggested that since
neither July or August line up with our months that well, maybe it'll
be Tish'ah beLeo. I don't think it has the same commemorative quality.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 1-Aug-2017, at 6:01am, Micha Berger wrote:
> We call the month Av as a zikaron of Galus Bavel and the subsequent
> ge'ulah.
> So, MAYBE when this date becomes a holiday, we'll be calling it
> Tish'ah beYuli or Tish'ah beOgust...

Tisha baChamishi

On 8/1/2017 6:01 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> We call the month Av as a zikaron of Galus Bavel and the subsequent
> ge'ulah.
Um... all of our month names are Babylonian.  Including Adar, which is a 
month of joy.  There's no reason we wouldn't be calling Tisha B'Av, and 
teaching our children, "Did you know that Tisha B'Av used to be a day of 
mourning?"

Lisa


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On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 04:27:17PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 1-Aug-2017, at 6:01am, Micha Berger wrote:
:> We call the month Av as a zikaron of Galus Bavel and the subsequent
:> ge'ulah.
...
: Um... all of our month names are Babylonian.  Including Adar, which
: is a month of joy.  There's no reason we wouldn't be calling Tisha
: B'Av, and teaching our children, "Did you know that Tisha B'Av used
: to be a day of mourning?"

What's that "um" about? The month names being Babylonian is a given
sitting behind the sentence you quote. It's an often referred to Y-mi,
RH 1:2 (vilna 6a)
<https://www.sefaria.org/Jerusalem_Talmud_Rosh_Hashanah.6a.2?lang=bi>
"De'amar R' Chanina: shemos chadashim alu beyadam miBavel." Then going
on to mention some pre-Bavli month names found in Tanakh - Risanim, Bul,
Ziv, showing how that all changes in Nechemia and Esther.

Sure, when talking about 9 beAv the fast, we may well teach them we
called it 9 beAv.

But, as I suggested in the OP, maybe after the ge'ulah from Galus Edom,
we'll do the same with the Julian / Gregorian month names. It will,
after all, be a much more momentus ge'ulah, being final and lasting.
If Anshei Keneses haGedolah thought it was appropriate to commemorate
one ge'ulah in this manner, perhaps we should assume al achas kamah
vekamah the end of our current galus would be commemorated similarly.


On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 01:01:50PM +0300, Menuchah Schwat wrote:
: Tisha baChamishi

That's ambiguous. The chumash uses "bachodesh" to be clearer about
which is the day count, and which is the month. Even if the month
number is a cardinal ("-i" - fifTH) and the day is an ordinal (no
suffix) the way you wrote them.

You don't explain *why* you think we'd go back to the biblical system,
rather than commemorating the ge'ulah from Galus Edom.

After all, even the nevi'im didn't stick to the original numbered
months. And I think my suggested parallel makes /some/ sense, if not
necessarily what the Sanhedrin will end up deciding.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In Kinah #7 (Aholi Asher Ta'avta), the Kalir wrote "v'nihyeita ketas 
bechalal".  To our ears this evokes images of loneliness and isolation, 
of someone surrounded by vacuum, light-years from anywhere and anyone, 
but what did "chalal" even mean to people with a Ptolemaic model (if 
that) of the universe?

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

There's a sweet teenager on our block with a significant developmental
disability. He always greets me with an enthusiastic hello and a smile when
I encounter him and is clearly pleased when I respond. This afternoon he
greeted me as usual, and (without having much time to think about it) I
greeted him back. I am not sure how much he understands about Tisha B'Av,
but he does understand how people respond to him and I didn't want to risk
hurting his feelings.

Kol tuv,
Ilana
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