Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 91

Fri, 14 Jul 2017

• 1. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Correcting Baalei Kriah (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 3. Re: Correcting Baalei Kriah (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: Correcting Baalei Kriah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah (Ben Rothke)
• 6. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Is it Assur to eat Neveilah? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. Re: Making an Avodah Zarah out of it (Micha Berger)
• 9. The Ramchal's Beard (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The Ramchal's Beard (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: The Ramchal's Beard (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: The Ramchal's Beard (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Is it Assur to eat Neveilah? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: The good and the bad (Micha Berger)

R' Micha Berger asked:

> And yes, Chazal predate double blind experiments and rely on
> chazaqah. Do we necessarily switch when we come up with better
> standards for testing medicine?

R' Joel Rich responded:

> The following statement was made , "The rabbis of the Talmud
> certainly didn't use a chi-squared test or regression and
> correlation analysis as we know it, they did operate with
> sophisticated levels of statistical analysis, the best of what
> was known to them in their time."
>
> I'd appreciate specific examples

I recently tried to learn a bit about Techum Shabbos. I was very
surprised to find an entire siman (#399, with eleven se'ifim), giving
details of exactly how the techum is to be measured. For example, the
first se'if specifies that we must use a linen rope exactly 50 amos
long. I was very surprised that the halacha would write such things,
rather than simply presuming that we'd be smart enough to use whatever
procedures are generally accepted as accurate.

This question is ask by both the Mishna Berura and Aruch Hashulchan,
who observe that there is nothing better for this purpose than a
surveyor's chain made of barzel (whatever barzel is... ;-)  However,
they answer, Chazal learned from Navi that *this* is proper way to do
it.

The relevance to this thread: My guess is that the MB and AhS might
agree that current technology can/should be used when it offers better
procedures for determination of objective facts (such as measuring
distances), provided there are no Chazals that specify a particular
procedure. But even though statistical analysis is an objective
science, the question of "Is this medicine reliable?" is a subjective
one, and tradition might rule.

Akiva Miller

R' JR:
We were taught to say the Haftorah ourselves (unless it is being read from a
klaf). What is the practice in other places?
 
I always assumed correcting when not from a klaf was more an educational
thing.
-------------------------------- 
 
I believe - and I may be wrong on this (in which case I'm sure I'll be
corrected!) - that in most chassidish shuls, everyone reads the haftorah to
themselves. In most litvishe shuls only the baal korei reads. And Nusach
Sefard/non-chasidish shuls go 50/50. 
 
Does that mesh with everyone else's experience?
 
KT, 
MYG
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If the person is reading from a full Bible, I will just listen. If I am 
not sure what book he's reading from, I'll read it to myself.
IIRC the Mishna Bruria takes it as a given that the reason most shuls 
don't read from the klaf is because of the cost. Given today's incomes 
and fancy shuls, that shouldn't be a factor. And yet, it is the rare 
beit knesset where they read from a klaf.
Ben

On 7/11/2017 6:51 AM, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
 > I believe ? and I may be wrong on this (in which case I?m sure I?ll 
be corrected!) ? that in most chassidish shuls, everyone reads the 
haftorah to themselves. In most litvishe shuls only the baal korei 
reads. And Nusach Sefard/non-chasidish shuls go 50/50.
 >
 > Does that mesh with everyone else?s experience?
 >
 > KT,
 > MYG

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:51:08AM -0400, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
: I believe - and I may be wrong on this (in which case I'm sure I'll be
: corrected!) - that in most chassidish shuls, everyone reads the haftorah to
: themselves. In most litvishe shuls only the baal korei reads. And Nusach
: Sefard/non-chasidish shuls go 50/50. 
:  
: Does that mesh with everyone else's experience?

I will confirm.

... WRT shuls that aren't leining from kelaf.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Joel ? I was basing it off examples by Rabbi Nahum Eliezer Rabinovitch,
Rosh Yeshiva of Birkat Moshe in Ma'ale Adumim in his book: Probability and
Statistical Inference in Ancient and Mediaeval Jewish Literature.

https://www.amazon.com/Probability-Statistical-Infe
rence-Mediaeval-Literature/dp/0802018629

=====================
The following statement was made , "The rabbis of the Talmud certainly
didn't use a chi-squared test or regression and correlation analysis as we
know it, they did operate with sophisticated levels of statistical
analysis, the best of what was known to them in their time."
I'd appreciate specific examples
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On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 10:08:25PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This question is ask by both the Mishna Berura and Aruch Hashulchan,
: who observe that there is nothing better for this purpose than a
: surveyor's chain made of barzel (whatever barzel is... ;-)  However,
: they answer, Chazal learned from Navi that *this* is proper way to do
: it.

Say I were to use a shorter rope. Well, then my measurments would include
more dips and bumps. Whereas the 50 ammah rope might cut a direct path,
a shorter rope would have two segments, in different angles. The measure
would be longer than if you just cut the tangent.

(And in fact, since most landscape is fractal, or nearly fractal until
you get cown to molecules, if your "ruler" were smaller than a grain
of sand, you could probably measure 50 amos along the wrinkles of the
surface within an arm's reach of where you started.)

So, the length of the rope will actually change the final measure.
The navi implies that a shorter rope would be /too/ accurate, forcing
a smaller measure than necessary.

The weight of the chain means that sagging is more common,
as lest if you aren't a surveyor. Or maybe the exact strechiness of
linen - less than wool but more than metal, is also part of the actual
measure.

...
: The relevance to this thread: My guess is that the MB and AhS might
: agree that current technology can/should be used when it offers better
: procedures for determination of objective facts (such as measuring
: distances), provided there are no Chazals that specify a particular
: procedure. But even though statistical analysis is an objective
: science, the question of "Is this medicine reliable?" is a subjective

And to reframe where I was going above in these terms: There are times
when Chazal are not trying to establish objective facts. (Or, to revive
another old thread and my hangup about how halakhah defines metzi'us:
... to establish as objectively as possible those facts that could
potentially enter our subjective experience.)

In nidon didan, the question would be: In order for a treatment not to
be derekh emori, and to be allowed on Shabbos where medicine for a
choleh sh'ein bo saqanah would be allows, does it

1- have to be established as potentially effect to the best we can
establish it?
or
2- have to be accepted as potentially effective by chazaqah, which is the
normal rule for justifying presumption in cases of doubt?

How objetive are we being asked to be?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

Is it Assur to eat Neveilah because it's Neveilah, or only because it's not
Shechted?

Meaning, if we have a creature that cannot be Shechted, but it is not a
non-Kosher species, it might be a Neveilah but be Kosher to eat because
there is no prohibition on eating Neveilah.

The non-fully gestated cow sheep or goat, even if it is born in the normal
manner, is not classified in Halacha as Bakar or Tzon. See Rashi Chulin 72b
end of Mishneh.

It cannot be Shechted to prevent it being a Neveilah, just like a horse for
example, cannot be Shechted.
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On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 10:54:43AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/06
: /2017/rabbis-son-syndrome-religious-struggle-world-religious-ideals/
:> Love of Torah does not always translate into love of
:> people -- or even love of God. Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
:> caustically noted that increased religious observance is not
:> always for the purpose of worshipping God, but rather
:> sometimes it is for the sake of "worshipping the Shulchan Aruch."

In R' Shlomo Wolbe, Alei Shur, vol II, "Frumkeit"
<http://www.aishdas.org/as/frumkeit.pdf>, speaks of halachic obervant
not for the sake of worshipping G-d, but speaks to why one would "worship
the SA" if it isn't about G-d. A translation of the opening:

> Frumkeit is a natural, instinctive urge to connect to the Creator. This
> instinct is also found in animals. King David said, " The young lions roar
> after their prey, and seek their food from G-d." (Psalms 104:21) "He gives
> to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry." (Psalms 147:9)

> There is no need to understand these verses as [mere] figures of
> speech -- animals have an instinctive sense that there exists One who
> is concerned about their sustenance. This instinct [also] operates in
> man -- on a higher level, of course. This natural frumkeit [instinct]
> assists us in our service of G-d, and without this natural assistance
> our service would would be extremely heavy upon us. However, frumkeit,
> like any other instinctive urge that operates within man, is naturally
> egotistical and self-centered. Accordingly, frumkeit drives a person to
> do only that which is good for himself -- [in contrast, positive] actions
> between man and his fellow man, as well as wholehearted actions between
> man and G-d are not fueled by frumkeit. One who bases his service on it
> alone remains egocentric. Even if he were to impose many stringencies
> upon himself, he would not become a man of kindness, and he would not
> reach [the level of] altruistic service. This is what necessitates that
> we base our service specifically on intellect...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The Ramchal famously had the cleanshaven look.

But Google tells me the depillatory was invented in 1844 by a Dr
Gouraud of the US.

The history of hair removal stories I found focus on women. And they
suggest methods I cannot picture people did to cheeks: waxing, pumice,
wax/resin, tweezers, and of course sharp blades -- starting with the
Sumerians using the edge of a broken seashell.

So I'm wondering how it was done.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 13/07/17 19:31, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> But Google tells me the depillatory was invented in 1844 by a Dr
> Gouraud of the US.

Google misinforms you.
See, e.g., http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1412.htm#20
Or, lehavdil,
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/1935454

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

R' MB:
The Ramchal famously had the cleanshaven look.

But Google tells me the depillatory was invented in 1844 by a Dr
Gouraud of the US.

The history of hair removal stories I found focus on women. And they
suggest methods I cannot picture people did to cheeks: waxing, pumice,
wax/resin, tweezers, and of course sharp blades -- starting with the
Sumerians using the edge of a broken seashell.

So I'm wondering how it was done.

---------------------------------



KT, 
MYG

P.S. I recall reading once that male Native Americans used to use wooden tweezers to remove facial hair. 

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 09:37:19PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: Shabbos 80b discusses a few depilatory methods, at least one of which
: was intended for facial hair.

It says that the poor "waxed" themselves with sid; and I am assumign
that's not for skin as sensitive as cheeks.

The rich used soles. Was this as an abrasive? Is fine flour even abrasive,
or (as I seem to recall of today's grindings) -- soft? I think the rich
used white makeup.

And benos melakhim used shemen hamor, which we are told is acidic olive
oil from underripe olives. While I do not doubt that benos melakhim
tried this a means to reduce hair growth (the gemara says it also ma'adan
habasar) I do doubt it worked.

More recently (meaning, up to the mass production of depilatories)
in Europe, cat's urine (for the ammonia, a strong base) or vinegar (an
acid) were used. Both were believed to prevent or reduce hair growth,
not remove what did gwo. But both failed double-blind testing.


: P.S. I recall reading once that male Native Americans used to use
: wooden tweezers to remove facial hair.

Many NA nations also tend to produce far less facial hair than most
Jewish men to start with. I guess people can learn to get used to it.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:06:59PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: Is it Assur to eat Neveilah because it's Neveilah, or only because it's not
: Shechted?

In his Bar Mitzvah derashah, R' Chaim Brisker proved that neveilah and
tereifah were aspects of the same underlying issur. Thus explaining
(among other points I do not remember) why the Rambam holds that a
neveilah and a tereifah can be metz'tarfos to a kezayis issur.

Which would imply that WRT eating, all non-shechted meat is the same,
and the issur is the lack of shechitah, not the tum'as neveilah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 02:54:51PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This is explained in the Gemara Megilla 25a, at the top: "It implies
: that [we thank Him] for the good but not for the bad, but that
: contradicts the Mishna that says that a person must bless for the bad
: just like he blesses for the good."

But that doesn't mean he must bless for the bad whenever he blesses for
the good.

Which is I think the chiluq that resolves the problems you raised.

: That other Mishna (in Brachos) teaches us that we are obligated to say
: one bracha or the other, depending on the events at hand. If one
: experiences some of God's goodness, he must thank Him for it. On
: *other* occasions Hashem does things that are painful, but that is
: irrelevant: Here and now one must thank Him for the good.

Actually, even painful effects of the same occasion. Like the textbook
case: Inheriting a large some of money requires making both Dayan ha'emes
and hatov vehameitiv.

: Thus there is no contradiction between the two mishnayos, as they are
: talking about two different situations...

I think they are both talking about the good and tragic in the same
situations. The first mishnah is prohibiting someone from even implying
in a non-response context that when experiencing tragedy, one can skip
Dayan ha'emes.

: So my chavrusa and I took out our siddur, to see if this is actually
: followed. The first page we turned to was Modim, in the Amidah. It
: turns out that Modim - especially the chasima of the bracha - is
: mostly about the idea idea that God *IS* good, not so much about that
: He *does* good....

Mah beinaihu? After all, all His "Middos" are about appearances and how
the effects of his Action look to us.

And actually, it pretty explicitly says in one point that it's about
G-d appearing to us as Good -- "'haTov' shimkha".

But as I opened, I didn't see Megillah as saying when we offer general
thanks, it must be about both. Rather, he cannot be the kind of peson
that skips thanking Him for those things He does "for our own good"
(to paraphrase the stereotypical parent line).

And thus, no problem in the 4th berakhah of bentching, either.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard


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