Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 90

Mon, 10 Jul 2017

• 1. CORRECTION (Joel Schnur)
• 2. the desire to be remembered (Simi Peters)
• 3. Treaty with India (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: Treaty with India (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: CORRECTION (Joel Schnur)
• 6. Re: Correcting Baalei Kriah (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 7. Re: being remembered (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 8. Re: Correcting Baalei Kriah (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Pinchas (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah, (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah, (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: being remembered (Micha Berger)

I sent an email to AVODAH where I mistakenly wrote that Rav Rivkas from 
Rabbeinu HaGra's family did not write Be'er Hagolah seeking  to correct 
their misspelling. I wrote Bay.ur Hagolah.

NEITHER is correct. He wrote B' er HaGolah. there is a shva under the 
Bais. I ws mistakenly thinking of ppl mistakenly saying Biur HaGra 
instead of Bay.ur Hagra.

My mistake but as least I was thinking of the Gra. :)

Reb Joel



-- 
___________________________
Joel Schnur, Senior VP
Government Affairs/Public Relations
Schnur Associates, Inc.
25 West 45th Street, Suite 1405
New York, NY 10036

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204
Fax. 212-489-0203
j...@schnurassociates.com
www.schnurassociates.com


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170707/0ee11970/attachment-0001.htm>

I would call this the need for recognition or the desire for kavod.  I think
it is a yetzer akin to the need for food or the desire for sex, the yetzer
hara that is 'tov la'adam' as Bereshit Rabba puts it.  Without the appetite
for food, we would probably die of malnutrition; without the desire for
sexual pleasure we would probably not want to procreate, and without the
desire for kavod/recognition, we would probably be sociopaths.  Our need for
recognition (desire to be remembered, if you prefer) enables everything from
toilet training to basic manners to our desire to contribute positively to
society.  If we did not need the approval of our parents and our peers, we
would never get far enough along the path of social interaction to learn the
rewarding nature of altruism and doing good for the sake of doing good.  The
process of socialization makes us human.  Without our need for
kavod/approval/recognition, it is hard to see how we could ever be educated.

 

Kol tuv,

Simi Peters 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170708/298e40c6/attachment-0001.htm>

Assume for a moment that Hinduism is a full fledged religion of idol 
worship. Would there be any halachic issues with a treaty/treaties 
between Israel and India?

Ben

On 08/07/17 17:24, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> Assume for a moment that Hinduism is a full fledged religion of idol 
> worship. Would there be any halachic issues with a treaty/treaties 
> between Israel and India?

I don't see why.  There were treaties between our ancient kings and 
foreign rulers, pretty much all of whom served AZ.  And of course 
there's the treaty between Yaacov & Lavan, which was explicitly backed 
by each party's deity/ies.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

at least I know that there are some people actually reading what I
send out, so TY 2 Rabbi Ralbag, shimon, Capt Dan and I think Mendy
for responding.

as for the rabbi's comment, I am pleased to see/read that he has a good 
sense of humor. I also learned how to spell email in Hebrew.


My announced CORRECTION reminds me of the incident with Reb Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach when he had a prober for being Rosh Hayeshiva for KOL TORAH.
he was giving his shiur and someone corrected him. He stopped, thought
about it and then said 'taeeti" figuring he blew his chance for getting
the job. Afterwards they told him he was selected as RY and he supposedly
said "but I blew it when I made that mistake." Just the opposite they
said. We want someone who is able to admit he made a mistake.

and with that story, I end this adventure. :)

B'yidedus,
Joel

> Rav Ralbag <mailto:aral...@gmail.com>
> July 8, 2017 at 10:06 PM
> ?? JOEL:
> ???? ??? - ?? ????? ???? ????.
> ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????-??????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? 
> ????? !!
> ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? - ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? 
> ??? !!!!???
> ??? ???? ????? ?????-????? !
> ????? ???? ???? ??? ?-?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????. ??? ??????? ??? ????? 
> ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????? - ?????, ???? ????? ???? 
> ???? !!!
> ??????? ?????, ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????,
> ???? ?????


On Jul 9, 2017, at 12:40 PM, mendy stern <mendymst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So you want to be the Rosh Yeshiva?

Only if the yeshiva davens nusach HaGra! 

Sent from my iPhone

R' Joel Rich:

Does your shul have formal guidelines for correcting baalei kriah?  If yes,
are they from a prior source? Are they consistently applied at all minyanim?
By whom?

---------------- 
 
My shul does not, except that the previous (now deceased Rav) was very
against it, quoting the Tur about embarrassing the Baal Korei. 
 
That said, let me add to R' JR's questions: Does your shul have any
guidelines for correcting the Korei of the Haftorah? A Rav once pointed out
to me that there is no mekor for correcting the one leining the haftorah; in
his shul, he did not correct on the Haftorah, even the kind of mistake that
he would have corrected during the Krias Hatorah. Does anyone have any
thoughts on this?
 
KT,
MYG

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170709/17801f06/attachment-0001.htm>

R' JR:

R'YBS commented (not so positively) on man's great desire to be remembered
(think Ozymandias). Question - from where does this desire spring?  The
Gesher Hachayim, IIUC, says it is from the soul's knowledge that it is
eternal.  Any other interpretations (halachic or general society)?

------------------------ 
 
Maslow's highest level in his Hierarchy of Needs (in its later permutations)
is self-transcendence. I think that's what you're talking about. Here's some
further on that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#Self-t
ranscenden
ce
 
KT,
MYG

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170709/469a0c3a/attachment-0001.htm>

That said, let me add to R' JR's questions: Does your shul have any
guidelines for correcting the Korei of the Haftorah? A Rav once pointed out
to me that there is no mekor for correcting the one leining the haftorah;
in his shul, he did not correct on the Haftorah, even the kind of mistake
that he would have corrected during the Krias Hatorah. Does anyone have any
thoughts on this?

================================

We were taught to say the Haftorah ourselves (unless it is being read from a klaf). What is the practice in other places?



I always assumed correcting when not from a klaf was more an educational thing.



KT

Joel

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170710/b3d9ea6b/attachment-0001.htm>

?Pinhas? has turned back Chamati, My wrath, from the people of Israel.?   (Num.25:11)
 
So, Pinhas has proven his unusual power to turn back God?s wrath from Israel through a very courageous, 
difficult and controversial act. The Vilna Gaon brilliantly observes that in the word chamati (my wrath), 
the two outside letters chet and yud read chai ? life ? while the inside letters, mem and tav, read meit ? death.  
 
The hidden meaning is that by Pinchos facing squarely what has taken place on the outside, he has miraculously 
turned back the wrath of the Almighty. In doing so, he has removed death (meit) from the inside, replacing it with life (chai).
 
(Also, if you remove the "W" (for Wilderness) from "wrath" and replace it with "O" (for Obedience to God), the ?orath? can be rearranged to read Torah). 

Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live. 
Norman Cousins
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20170709/aa085097/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 9:37am EDT, R Ben Rothke wrote to Areivim:
: In a new book, Alternative Medicine in Halachah, Rabbi Rephoel Szmerla
: attempts to make the halakhic case for alternative medical treatments.
: 
: My review and analysis of his failed approach to halacha is at
: http://www.thelehrhaus.com/culture/2017/7/7
: /the-not-so-orthodox-embrace-of-the-new-age-movement

Although RBR posted to Areivim, I have an Avodah question. To quote:
> To boot, Szmerlas proof for this criticism is rather simplistic. For
> example, he notes that in the eyes of the Torah, any phenomenon that has
> been validated three times is considered authentic. He is referring to
> the Talmud in Shabbat 61a that discusses when amulets are to be approved
> as medical devices. He takes a discussion limited to amulets and applies
> it to all medical therapies. In any system, be it legal, mathematical,
> or theological, one cant take a limited item; and pro forma apply it
> globally.

And the article discusses things like auras and other New Age ideas that
if traced back to their origins one will find AZ.

Is it all that different than the gemara's discussion or wearing a fox's
tooth, where even a Rationalist like the Rambam (Shabbos 19:13) permits?
Darkhei Emori are allowed for refu'ah (AZ 67a). Also Rashi (Chullin
77b "yeish") which according to the Panim Me'iros (1:36) includes any
act to the body to be healed, but not "spooky action at a distance"
(to quote Dr Einstein out of context). The Ran (Chullin ad loc) based on
this Rashi explicitly permits any act we know works to heal, even if the
workings are metaphysical.

So is the difference only in which metaphysics I personally believe is
real, and which is -- again, IMHO -- "woowoo"?



And yes, Chazal predate double blind experiments and rely on chazaqah.
Do we necessarily switch when we come up with better standards for testing
medicine?

Are the laws of tereifos, which say put despite later findings about what
an animal can live 12 months with, and what not, typical and precedent to
say we go with Chazal's science, law is law, ignore the science? Or is
it an exception because tereifos is halakhah leMoshe miSinai? I could see
the standard of medical testing being decided by that question...

Or... when it comes to which saqanos one is allowed to risk, the standard
is normal and accepted. If people tend to climb trees to pick dates, it is
mutar to get a job risking a fall from the top of a date-palm.

Perhaps medicine too is defined by societal standards.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

And yes, Chazal predate double blind experiments and rely on chazaqah.
Do we necessarily switch when we come up with better standards for testing
medicine?
=====================
The following statement was made , "The rabbis of the Talmud certainly
didn't use a chi-squared test or regression and correlation analysis as we
know it, they did operate with sophisticated levels of statistical
analysis, the best of what was known to them in their time."

I'd appreciate specific examples

KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:15:20PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: R'YBS commented (not so positively) on man's great desire to
: be remembered (think Ozymandias). Question - from where does this
: desire spring? The Gesher Hachayim, IIUC, says it is from the soul's
: knowledge that it is eternal. Any other interpretations (halachic or
: general society)?

From a recent blog post of mine, The Interpersonal Aspect of Parah Adumah
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/the-interpersonal-aspect-of-parah-adumah>:

   To illustrate how the Yerushalmi works, I enjoy taking a rather extreme
   case -- Berakhos 7:1, 51b:

    1. Rav Huna said: Three who eat, this one by himself, this one by
       himself, and this one by himself, who then mix together should
       bentch with a mezuman.
    2. Rav Chisda said: But this is [only] when they come from three
       [separate] groups [of three people, so that each ate with an
       obligation of zimun, even if from different groups].
    3. According to the logic of Rabbi Zei'ira and his friends: But [the
       only may make a zimun] when they ate together.

    1. Rabbi Yonah [commented] on that which Rab Hunah [was just quoted as
       saying]: If [the kohein] dipped three hyssop sprigs [into the water
       made with the ashes of a parah adumah], this one by itself and this
       one by itself, and mixed them [the hyssops] together, one may
       sprinkle [the person needing taharah] with them.
    2. Rav Chisda said: But this is [only] when they come from three
       [separate] groups [of three sprigs, so that each sprig was dipped
       as part of a group of three, even if different groups].
    3. According to the logic of Rabbi Zei'ira and his friends: But [the
       only may may be used for sprinkling parah adumah water] when they
       were dipped together.

   ...
   But what justifies this comparison? Is it really an expectation that
   all groups of three ought to be alike, regardless of the topic or the
   sort of group?

   In 1973, Ernest Becker wrote a book on philosophy and psychology titled
   "The Denial of Death". To give a thumbnail of his basic thesis, here
   are some snippets from [38]The Becker Foundation's "Theories" page:

     "[T]he basic motivation for human behavior is our biological need to
     control our basic anxiety, to deny the terror of death."
     ...
     The basic premise of The Denial of Death is that human civilization
     is ultimately an elaborate, symbolic defense mechanism against the
     knowledge of mortality. Since human beings have a dualistic nature
     consisting of a physical self and a symbolic self, we can transcend
     the dilemma of mortality through heroism, a concept involving the
     symbolic half.

     Becker describes human pursuit of "immortality projects" (or causa
     sui), in which an we create or become part of something that we feel
     will outlast our time on earth. In doing so, we feel that we become
     heroic and part of something eternal that will never die, compared
     to the physical body that will eventually die. This gives human
     beings the belief that our lives have meaning, purpose, and
     significance in the grand scheme of things.
     Still, for Becker, the only suitable source of meaning is
     transcendent, cosmic energy, divine purpose...

   Becker develops an idea that strikes most of us naturally. A central --
   and perhaps THE central -- piece of our drives to contribute to
   community and to pursue a higher meaning is because these both overcome
   our own death.

   What I give my children outlives me in my children, grandchildren and
   beyond. What I contribute to the Jewish People is eternal because our
   nation is eternal. What I add to the development of humanity from Adam
   to the messiah outlives me in impacting the lives of generations to
   come.

   Fear of death, the need to embark on "immortality projects" can push us
   to expand our souls to beyond our mortal bodies. As Rav Shimon Shkop
   writes:

     The entire "I" of a coarse and lowly person is restricted only to
     his substance and body. Above that one is someone who feels that his
     "I" is a synthesis of body and soul. And above that one is someone
     who can include in his "ani" all of his household and family....
     And there are more levels in this of a person who is whole, who can
     connect his soul to feel that all of the world and worlds are his
     "ani," and he himself is only one small limb in all of creation....
     Then, his self-love helps him love all of the Jewish people and
     [even] all of creation.

   The parah adumah is about overcoming death. A person who witnessed or
   experienced another's death is told to go through a ritual of changing
   tracks...  He not only sees three sprigs from a scrubby bush, but also
   is thinking about joining together and how he can join with others. How
   to turn that conversation around from death and its reminder that we
   are merely physical beings toward death as a drive to go beyond that.

   We should not forget the most cryptic (choq-like) element of the parah
   adumah. ... [I]t requires that someone from the community reach out
   to them, even at their own expense. A true uniting of someone who
   might be thinking about death and man-as-mammal back into being a
   person contributing meaning to a larger community.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)