Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 66

Thu, 25 May 2017

• 1. My tree grows into your garden, can you force me to trim the tree? (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: My tree grows into your garden, can you force me to trim the tree? (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: My tree grows into your garden, can you force me to trim the tree? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Holy Smokes (Ben Bradley)
• 5. Chamets Sale, the one that got away - Mashkon Pikadon (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 6. L'sheim shmayim (Michael Feldstein)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] L'sheim shmayim (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: [Areivim] L'sheim shmayim (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: [Areivim] L'sheim shmayim (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Is Mincha Different? (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Shoftim-Mesorah Chain (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Shoftim-Mesorah Chain (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Minhagei Nashim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: B'midbar (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Micha Berger)

We have a tree that is growing into our neighbors garden and they would
like us to cut down/off the branches that are growing into their garden.
Strictly speaking al pi din, am I chayav to cut down the branches that are
on/over their property? I would like to understand what the chiyuv is al pi
din.
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[Added textual mar'eh meqomos alongside the links. -micha]

On 23/05/17 13:54, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> We have a tree that is growing into our neighbors garden and they would 
> like us to cut down/off the branches that are growing into their garden. 
> Strictly speaking al pi din, am I chayav to cut down the branches that 
> are on/over their property? I would like to understand what the chiyuv 
> is al pi din.

These would seem to be dispositive:

[Rambam, Hilkhos Shekheinim 10:11:]
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/c310.htm#11

[SA CM 155:26:]
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C
%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%9F_%D7%9E%D7%A9
%D7%A4%D7%98_%D7%A7%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%9B%D7%95

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 08:54:41PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: We have a tree that is growing into our neighbors garden and they would
: like us to cut down/off the branches that are growing into their garden.
: Strictly speaking al pi din, am I chayav to cut down the branches that are
: on/over their property? I would like to understand what the chiyuv is al pi
: din.

Related question, really came up last week.

Someone had a tree that neighbors were complaining about, that it looked
like it was dying and might fall on the neighbor's roof. On a windy day
recently it actually snapped -- but not falling on the roof, instead the
tree brought down the power lines. A number of people on the block lost
food before power was restored and other expenses were incurred. Is the
owner of the tree liable al pi din? What if the neighbor hadn't warned
him, so that we cannot know if the owner was aware of an issue or not?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 42nd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Yesod: Why is self-control and
Fax: (270) 514-1507       reliability crucial for universal brotherhood?

'Note found interesting was that R' Yosef Greenwald assumes that
venishmartem me'od lenafshoseikhem isn't about preserving life, but
preserving one's ability to pull the ol mitzvos. (That sounds weird,
but an animal "pulls a yoke", no?) Which includes preserving life. And
thus includes intoxication and other mind- or mood-altering chemicals
that could hamper one's ability to function.'

The odd thing about v'nishmartem me'od l'nafshoseichem is that it's a
'blank pasuk'. Ie despite sounding like a tzivui which we'd need Chazal to
define more precisely it is in fact not brought anywhere in Chazal at all.
Not in halacha nor aggadeta. Rishonim don't say much if anything about it
either as far as I recall.
So that leaves us fairly free to guess what it means, I suppose. I'd
assumed it means preserving health, inasmuch as nefesh usually refers to
life force, and we wouldn't need it to refer to preserving life itself,
since that's covered by a) prohibition of suicide and b) al taamod al dam
reyecha.
And preserving health would presumably be in order to keep mitzvos the better, no?

And I think an animal bears a yoke and pulls a plough. Lashon Hakodesh is
always 'nosei ol'. Which corresponds better to bear than pull. So we
carry/bear the ol mitzvos I think.

Ben

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 In Siman 440
chametz foods owned by a G
in the care of a Yid (a ?shomer? / guardian)

Siman 441
chametz foods owned by a G
left in the care of a Yid
as a ?mashkon? (lit. collateral)
for guarantee of a loan from the Yid

Pesachim 5b
Two pesukim
Shmos 13:7 ?Chametz shall not be seen to you and leaven shall not be seen
to you in all your borders.?
You may not see your own (i.e. keep in your possession),
but you may see that of others (i.e. non-Jews)?

Shmos 12:19 ?For a seven-day period leaven shall not be found in your
homes.?
a Yid may not accept Chamets deposits from non-Jews.?

there appears to be an inconsistency
Gemara Pesachim 5b
If a Yid may see Chamets of non-Jews
why does the Beraisa prohibit the chametz deposit of a non-Jew?

It depends upon whether the Y has (monetary) responsibility
for the Chametz,


When a Y
accepts monetary responsibility for the chametz
he is considered to be owner
to the extent that he is Over BYBY

Mishnah Berura discusses whether the Y
can sell the ?pikadon?.
concludes yes

If the Y has no monetary responsibility (i.e. for loss, theft or negligence)
it may be kept in his house during Pesach

but to ensure it is not mistakenly eaten
must close it in a room

The ?shomer? who assumes monetary liability
becomes a part-owner
therefore, a Jew's chametz
with a non-Jewish ?shomer?
does not absolve the Y
he is Over BYBY

A visiting non-Jew
who brings his own chametz
into the home of a Jew
need not ask the non-Jew
to remove the chametz
and may even invite him into his home
and eat the chametz right at his table
provided the Y does not eat together with the G
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>
>
>
> I am not expressing an opinion here on the permissibility of maharats, or
> of women's ordination. I merely wish to express my respect for those on
> both sides of this important question, and my hope that the dispute will
> remain on the level of a machloket l'shem shamayim and that ultimately all
> of us will benefit from this challenging and passionate conversation.
>
> ----------------------

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Ilana.  I have found that discussions
about the subject of hiring a maharat tend to get very personal because
those who support
shuls hiring a maharat are quickly accused of being agenda driven ... and
of not having
a recognized posek to support their halachic position.   The discussions
rarely focus on
the relevant halachic issues.

It's nice to hear someone who is willing to respect the other side...and
recognize that
the discussion is a machlokes l'sheim shamayim.


-- 
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT
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On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 4:42pm EDT, R Michael Feldstein wrote:

: Thank you for your thoughtful post, Ilana.  I have found that discussions
: about the subject of hiring a maharat tend to get very personal because
: those who support
: shuls hiring a maharat are quickly accused of being agenda driven ... and
: of not having
: a recognized posek to support their halachic position.   The discussions
: rarely focus on
: the relevant halachic issues.

A discussion on Avodah can focus exclusively on the relevant halachic
issues. A decision of what to do in practice has to include deferring
to the position that actually is backed by recognized posqim.

And one side's unwillingness to ask the question on this level itself
becomes a relevant halachic issue.

However, the following is true anyway:
: It's nice to hear someone who is willing to respect the other side...and
: recognize that
: the discussion is a machlokes l'sheim shamayim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           good for all mankind?

If it helps, those who oppose hiring a maharat are also quickly accused 
of being agenda driven.

Unity: we all assume that's the person we see in the mirror is OK.

Ben

On 5/24/2017 10:42 PM, Michael Feldstein via Areivim wrote:
 > I have found that discussions
 > about the subject of hiring a maharat tend to get very personal 
because those who support
 > shuls hiring a maharat are quickly accused of being agenda driven

On 5/24/2017 10:42 PM, Michael Feldstein via Areivim wrote:
 > I have found that discussions
 > about the subject of hiring a maharat tend to get very personal 
because those who support
 > shuls hiring a maharat are quickly accused of being agenda driven



_______________________________________________
Aren't we all agenda driven? IMHO the challenge is living in "post modern"
times where there is little objective right and wrong, thus all agendas are
viewed as equally valid (or invalid)
KT
Joel Rich
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 S"A 90:9 the following statement appears-"V'hu hadin bnai adam hadarim
 b'yshuvim v'ein lahem minyan mkol makom yitpallu shacharit v'arvit bzman
 shehatzibur mitpallim (smag)." Question - why isn't mincha mentioned?
KT
Joel Rich

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http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20252&;st=&pgnum=484
Fascinating article on the mesorah chain-were the shoftim really part of it ?(doesn't deal with broader question of why we don't see Sanhedrin in Nach).
KT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 02:30:30PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20252&;st=&pgnum=484
: Fascinating article on the mesorah chain-were the shoftim really part of it ?(doesn't deal with broader question of why we don't see Sanhedrin in Nach).

Is this the right link? The article appears to be about the revalation
of Tanakh "Dargot haNevu'ah baTorah, Nevi'im uKhtuvim", starting with
Devarim vs the other 4 chumashim, then Navi vs Kesuvim. By R Moshe
Menachem haKohein Shapira.

I think you mean an earlier article, MEsoret haTSBP beTequfat
haShofetim uviYmei Sha'ul haMelekh, by R' Daniel Yehudah Neustadt.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20252pgnum=474

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 44th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            does unity demand?

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 06:51:56AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I am NOT talking about a machlokes haposkim, where the wife was taught one
: thing and the husband was taught something else. In that case, there is
: much common ground, and they (or their rav) can go to the sources to figure
: out what the couple should do. I'm talking about a much more fundamental
: problem, where generations have passed on different traditions, without
: anyone ever realizing that there was a mismatch.

Is this really a problem?

I highly recommend learning AhS. One of the things you get to watch
is how much this conflict drives the dialectic of halakhah. Unlike the
clean-room approach to halachic theory one gets from lomdus. You get a
sense of how much acceptance of a practice in the field drives how much
willingness to accept or draft a dachuq theory to explain how it could
be justified in theory.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 44th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            does unity demand?

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:37:34PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: Israel's brithplace was b'midbar -- in the wilderness. It has
: been suggested that only the barren wilderness could have produced
: the monotheistic faith...

But we didn't develop monotheism in the midbar, we were taught it by our
parents back to Avraham. We had some help being reconvinced during the
plagues. But monotheism isn't the aspect of Yahadus that really emerged
during the Exodus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 12:43:36PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This morning I was learning some Aruch HaShulchan about Sefiras Haomer,
: and he discusses the situation where a single community has varying
: observances of which days of sefira are noheg aveilus. AhS 493:8 analyzes
: when Lo Tisgodedu applies and when it doesn't. ...
: [W]hen DOES Lo Tisgodedu apply? It applies to minhagim, because that is
: outside of the purview of Beis Din, and it is "m'chuar" for Jews to be
: factionalized like that.
....
: help us with Tefillin on Chol Hamoed. That *is* a question of halacha,
: despite the common wording of "My minhag is to do this." And since it
: is a question of halacha, Lo Tisgodedu would *not* apply according to
: the AhS. Except that in 31:4, the AhS says that Lo Tisgodedu DOES apply
: to tefillin on Chol Hamoed.

: I don't know where to go from here. Any thoughts? How can we make 31:4
: consistent with 493:8?

Although as you note wearing or not wearing tefillin is called minhag,
as in: there are minhagim about which pesaq to follow. People aren't
going to rabbanim to pasqen the question anew. So, whether the town
has one beis din and thus should conform to one pesaq or mutilple
batei din and uniformity isn't expected has little to do with tefillin
on ch"m either.

It therefore seems to me that the relevant feature isn't whether the
imperative is din or is minhag, but whether the decision is made by the
local court(s) or inherited.

Tefillin on ch"m or lack thereof are minhag enough to fall on the minhag
side of the AhS's chiluq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 44th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            does unity demand?


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