Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 63

Mon, 15 May 2017

• 1. Re: Tahor App (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 2. Re: Tahor App ()
• 3. Re: Tahor App (Micha Berger)
• 4. Lag B'omer Am Yisroel Chai (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Lag B'omer Am Yisroel Chai (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Tahor App (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Lag B'omer Am Yisroel Chai (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Lag B'omer Am Yisroel Chai (Micha Berger)
• 9. Chamets Sale, the one that got away (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Re: Tahor App (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Tahor App (Ilana Elzufon)
• 12. Music on the night of Lag B'Omer (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 13. Re: Music on the night of Lag B'Omer (Zev Sero)
• 14. Dropped tefillin (saul newman)

There is a definite dearth of rabbis on the site.

I am somewhat conflicted on this. OTOH, the nuances of coloring will be 
distorted by many displays - perhaps all displays. OTOH, perhaps women 
who otherwise would not ask she'eilos would use this service.

KT,
YGB

 

 
From: Micha Berger via Avodah  avo...@lists.aishdas.org



Someone mentioned tahorapp.com  on-line, so I took a look at their web site.
To quote:
> Keeping  Tradition &
> Keeping Your Privacy

> Rabbinically Approved!  Anonymously send pictures of your Taharas
> Hamishpacha questions to a Rav  right from your own home. Receive answers
> quickly and privately.  Download Tahor App For Free!

I then thought of "The Dress"  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress>,
a picture of a  black-and-blue dress that floated around the internet that
many of us  perceived as white-and-gold......

.....So, given that people guess at the  background lighting when they see a
picture and then subconsciously correct  for it (see explanation on
wikipedia page), how could a rav rely on a Tahor  App image?


-- 
Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org      
 



>>>>>>
 
 
According to wiki the human eye can distinguish about ten million different 
 colors.  Other sources say "only" seven million.  (Not relevant here  but 
interesting:  Some birds, some fish, some reptiles, even some  insects, like 
bees, can see colors we can't see.)
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision
 
A computer screen can display about 33,000 different colors -- only a  
small fraction of the number of shades in nature that the human eye can  see.
 
http://www.rit-mcsl.org/fairchild/WhyIsColor/Questions/4-6.html
 
The takeaway -- to my mind -- is that the tahor app probably can't be  
relied on.  The rav needs to see the actual color, not on a screen.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------





 
 
 



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On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 10:33am EDT, R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: I am somewhat conflicted on this. OTOH, the nuances of coloring will
: be distorted by many displays - perhaps all displays. OTOH, perhaps
: women who otherwise would not ask she'eilos would use this service.

Because of "The Dress" I am worried that "perhaps all displays" really
understates the possibility of getting a color wrong.

While the problem you raise is real. I would still recommend yoatzos
as a better solution. Still, there are women who still wouldn't go to
antoher woman, or who live in an area with no one to ask.

RnTK wrote:
: According to wiki the human eye can distinguish about ten million different
: colors. Other sources say "only" seven million. ...
: A computer screen can display about 33,000 different colors...
: small fraction of the number of shades in nature that the human eye can see.
...
: The takeaway -- to my mind -- is that the tahor app probably can't be
: relied on. The rav needs to see the actual color, not on a screen.

I think the problem I raised can lead to more profound misassessments.
The precision of color displays will blur the edges. And the rabbis
behind Tahor App say that it's only for more clear cases. What had me
concerned is that that perception is based on more context colors and
lighting specifics than the phone's camera may capture. Thus "the dress",
which is explained, amongst other startling optical illusions involving
color perception here
<http://nerdist.com/5-optical-illusions-that-show-you-
why-your-brain-messes-with-the-dress>.
It is easy to make a large mistake in color identification even while
convinced the color is obvious. All it takes is seeing the picture in
different lighting than it was taken.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?

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On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:33:14PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: The 33rd day of the Omer is a minor holiday commemorating a break in
: the plague.

The common translation of askaria is some kind of lung disease.

However, the only explanation of the gemara that predates the late
acharonim is R' Achai Gaon's -- that the word is sicarii. Meaning,
they were killed by Roman dagger- or shortsword-men. Tying the deaths
of the omer to the Bar Kokhva rebellion.

(The sicarii of the events of Tish'ah beAv were Jewish dagger
bearers. Same word, different people.)

If I may add, which emphasizes the connection to shelo nahagu kavod zeh
lazeh. The galus was started by sin'as chinam; it couldn't be ended by
people who still hadn't mastered showing another kavod.

(A scary thought about our own hopes...)


: This day is observed as a day of rejoicing because on this day, the
: students of Rabbi Akiva did not die.

Actually, it's not a day of mourning because they didn't die.

It's observed as a day of rejoicing because qabbalistically inclined
communities -- Chassidim, and Sepharadim post-Chida and Ben Ish Hai --
find a lot of significance in R Chaim Vital (in the name of the Ari)
writes in Peri Eitz Chaim that it's yom simchas Rashbi. And then
a copying error turned that into "yom shemeis Rashbi", by dropping
the ches. However, it could well be two phrasings of the same idea.
Or perhaps it's the day Rashbi left the cave the 2nd time, or....

For Litvaks, Yekkes, and other communities, Lag baOmer as a holiday is
a new thing.

Also, as per other iterations, Lag baOmer at Meron appears to have
originally been Shemu'el haNavi's yahrzeit (Mag beOmer? Yom Y-m) at Nabi
Samwel, and only moved when Arabs going to Nabi Samwel (from Tzefat)
dangerous.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?

On 12/05/17 11:36, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> It is easy to make a large mistake in color identification even while
> convinced the color is obvious. All it takes is seeing the picture in
> different lighting than it was taken.

But isn't that explicitly taken care of by the instruction to the user 
to take the photo only in direct sunlight, and by the instruction to the 
rav to look at it only on a specific monitor at a specific brightness? 
However reliable or unreliable the technology is, at least *that* 
concern has been addressed, hasn't it?

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 12/05/17 14:53, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> It's observed as a day of rejoicing because qabbalistically inclined
> communities -- Chassidim, and Sepharadim post-Chida and Ben Ish Hai --
> find a lot of significance in R Chaim Vital (in the name of the Ari)
> writes in Peri Eitz Chaim that it's yom simchas Rashbi. And then
> a copying error turned that into "yom shemeis Rashbi", by dropping
> the ches. However, it could well be two phrasings of the same idea.

No typo is necessary.  What could "yom simchas Rashbi" mean if not his 
yortzeit, which he explicitly instructed his talmidim to celebrate as if 
it were his yom hillula?  That's where the whole concept of celebrating 
yortzeits rather than mourning on them comes from, as well as the 
concept of referring to them as "wedding days".


> Also, as per other iterations, Lag baOmer at Meron appears to have
> originally been Shemu'el haNavi's yahrzeit (Mag beOmer? Yom Y-m) at Nabi
> Samwel, and only moved when Arabs going to Nabi Samwel (from Tzefat)
> dangerous.

This paragraph got garbled enough that if I didn't already know what you 
meant I could not have figured it out.  But it's my understanding that 
it wasn't danger from Arab marauders that put an end to the pilgrimages 
to Shmuel Hanavi (from all over EY) but rather a government decree 
barring Jews from the site.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 04:01:06PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> It's observed as a day of rejoicing because qabbalistically inclined
:> communities -- Chassidim, and Sepharadim post-Chida and Ben Ish Hai --
:> find a lot of significance in R Chaim Vital (in the name of the Ari)
:> writes in Peri Eitz Chaim that it's yom simchas Rashbi. And then
:> a copying error turned that into "yom shemeis Rashbi", by dropping
:> the ches. However, it could well be two phrasings of the same idea.

: No typo is necessary.

It happened. Necessity isn't at issue. We know what the older version
was, and there used to be a ches there. "Shemeis" is simply not what
RCV wrote.

:                        What could "yom simchas Rashbi" mean if not
: his yortzeit, which he explicitly instructed his talmidim to
: celebrate as if it were his yom hillula?

Well, isb't that what I said in the last sentence quoted? But it's only
the most likely (in my opinion) possibility, and not -- as you are taking
for granterd -- the only one.

To continue from where you chopped off that text:
> Or perhaps it's the day Rashbi left the cave the 2nd time, or....

Simcha, in the sence that seeing the man carry two hadasim for
besamim -- zekhor veshamor -- yasiv da'ataihu. His simchah learning
with his son-in-law, R' Pinchas b Ya'ir. "Ashrekha shera'isi
bekakh..." Shabbos 33b-34a give you plenty of reason to believe
he was joyous, and wanted to share that joy with the qehillah.

Or maybe R Aqiva started teaching his 5 new students in earnest the
very day the massacre or plague stopped. And therefore Lag baOmer is
the day Rashbi started learning qabbalah.

Or maybe...

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?

The rabbi is shocked
He realises
After pesach is concluded
That one of the contracts he's supposed to sell to the G
Was not sold to the G

If ownership
According to Halacha
Is determined by believing one is in control
And when that control
Is lost
There's YiUsh
Then this Chamets
Had no owner
During Pesach

This Chamets
For all intents and purposes
During Pesach
Has no owner.

And Chamets can be Muttar
Even if owned by a Y
If it's abandoned
For the duration of Pesach

That's the Halacha
Re the Mapoles
The shed collapse
On a crate of whiskey
It's buried under at least 3 Tefachim
It's Muttar after Pesach
And it seems
Even without Bittul.
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On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 03:42:59PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 12/05/17 11:36, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >It is easy to make a large mistake in color identification even while
: >convinced the color is obvious. All it takes is seeing the picture in
: >different lighting than it was taken.
: 
: But isn't that explicitly taken care of by the instruction to the
: user to take the photo only in direct sunlight, and by the
: instruction to the rav to look at it only on a specific monitor at a
: specific brightness? ...

My wife and I saw The Dress for the first time together, and reported
different results. in that picture it is obvious it was taken on a sunny
day. And we both saw it in the same lighting.

So, I don't think it sufficiently takes care of the problem.

Maybe if the distributed a color sheet that must be included in the
picture in proximity to the kesem, and the rabbinic side of the
software corrects the colors displayed based on knowing what the
sheet should look like.

If the woman prints the color chart herself, you widen the uncertainty.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

I have also been in touch with them (the programmer and one of the rabbis).
I haven't come to a final conclusion, but my impression so far is:
(1) The people on this project are y'rei Shamayim who take what they are
doing seriously and have worked very hard for a long time on developing
something that will be reliable
(2) It is definitely not as good as seeing a mareh in real life
(3) It is not good enough for borderline or difficult-to-pasken cases, and
when difficult marot are submitted the rabbis will tell them that they need
to be evaluated in person
(4) They have had quite good results testing this app with easier cases
(and most marot that women ask about are easier cases), which is why they
have the confidence to release it
(5) There are clear instructions on photographing the mareh in sunlight
(6) This is only available for iphone - and deliberately so. They have the
camera and white balance technology to give a good enough image, and
because everyone is using the same type of phone and operating system,
there is more control. Developing an android version will be significantly
more challenging.

If asked, I think I would cautiously tell women that IF they have no way to
get the mareh evaluated in person (they do not live near any qualified Rav
or yoetzet, or they are traveling), and they have an iphone and carefully
follow the instructions, this seems to be reliable. I have worked online
with Rav Auman for a long time, and while I haven't actually met him in
person, I do trust him to know what he is doing.

I'm still checking into it. If any of you have iphones (like most Israelis,
I have an android) and have installed the app, I would be very interested
in hearing feedback. Thank you!

Shavua tov,
Ilana
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It seems quite common that people have bonfires with music on the evening of
Lag B'Omer. I haven't found a compelling reason for this custom - even those
who are meikil like the Rama to lift the Aveilus on Lag B'Omer don't do so
until the day, I thought, as miktzas hayom k'kulo. Does anyone have an
explanation for this?

 

KT,

MYG

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On 13/05/17 22:10, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> It seems quite common that people have bonfires with music on the
> evening of Lag B?Omer. I haven?t found a compelling reason for this
> custom ? even those who are meikil like the Rama to lift the Aveilus on
> Lag B?Omer don?t do so until the day, I thought, as miktzas hayom
> k?kulo. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Yes.  If one is merely noting the end of aveilus, then it starts in the 
morning, tachanun (or Tzidkas'cha) is said at the previous mincha, and 
bichlal it's not a celebration, any more than one celebrates when 
getting up from shiva.  I've never heard of people singing and dancing 
and playing music on such an occasion, even if it's permitted.  But if 
one is celebrating Rashbi's yom hillula then it's a full holiday, an 
occasion for song and dance and music, and of course it starts at night, 
with no tachanun at the previous mincha.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Is it standard non-hassidic practice to still fast for dropped tefilin?

Sent from my iPhone


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