Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 59

Wed, 03 May 2017

• 1. Re: Nidche (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Nidche (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Nidche (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Nidche (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Nidche (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Nidche (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Nidche (Simon Montagu)
• 8. Looking Jewish (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Yom Ha'atzmaut (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Nidche (Avram Sacks)
• 11. Re: Looking Jewish (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Nidche (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 13. Akrasia and Ritual (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Nidche (Ben Waxman)
• 15. nidche (saul newman)
• 16. Re: nidche (Simon Montagu)
• 17. Re: nidche (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

Last year, in http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol34/v34n055.shtml#10 , 
RHM gave R' Aharon Soloveitchik's shitah. Much like this year, although
last iteration he added:
                                                               One can
    review the Halachic sources RAS used in his book 'Logic of the heart,
    Logic of the Mind'.

I responded in the post right below it, quoting
RGS, http://www.torahmusings.com/technology-halakhic-change-yom-ha-atzmaut
,
who in turn was commenting on R/Dr Aaron Levin of Flatbush's evolving
practice:

    In America, where the celebrations can be more easily controlled to
    avoid the desecration of Shabbos, many authorities did not recognize
    the change of date, among them Rav Ahron Soloveichik and Rav Hershel
    Schachter. They insisted that people recite Hallel on the fifth of
    Iyar -- the day of the miracle of the declaration of the State of
    Israel -- regardless of when Israelis celebrate the day. Rav Aaron
    Levine's son, Rav Efraim Levine, told me that his father had to
    change his position on this question over time.

    Initially, Rav Levine followed Rav Soloveichik's ruling on this
    subject and instructed his congregants to always recite Hallel on
    the fifth of Iyar. However, the internet forced him to change his
    position. If I understand correctly from our brief conversation,
    Rav Levine's reasoning was that, in the past, Yom Ha-Atzma'ut
    celebrations were local, taking place in synagogues and schools with
    perhaps some articles in the Jewish newspaper. It was easy for a
    community to determine its own date to celebrate.

To which I added:
    RAS might have decided similarly or not had he lived to see the day
    when the primary intercontinental communication was the telephone,
    not the aerogram. We can't know.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

For Hebrew readers, Rav Yoni Rosensweig sums up Rav Rabinovitch's 
position on the matter:

https://www.facebook.com/yonirosensweig/posts/1761639697197955

Bottom line: Moving Yom Aztmaout doesn't entirely remove the uniqueness 
of the day. While he does state that the rabbinate holds that one skips 
Tachanun only on  the day Yom Aztmaout is celebrated, RYR doesn't accept 
that psak.

Ben

On a lighter, more aggadic note, my father suggested that the existence
of a country which would adjust its national holidays to minimize chilul
Shabbos is the very thing a Religious Zionist would be celebrating on
Yom haAtzmaaut.

Which reminds me of something Rav Dovid Lifshitz said about Yom
haAtzma'ut. Rebbe said that Atzma'ut is something special, and certainly
worth celebrating. But for now YhA is only half a holiday. We established
the atzma'ut of Yisrael, but are still missing its etzem.

To rephrase into my father's words: It is worthwhile to celebrate the
existence of a country which would adjust its national holidays to
minimize chilul Shabbos, but what we pray for is the existence of a
country that wouldn't have to!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

It always will need to be, just like on a Purim Meshulash the reading is 
pushed off until Sunday.

Ben

On 5/1/2017 9:35 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> It is worthwhile to celebrate the
> existence of a country which would adjust its national holidays to
> minimize chilul Shabbos, but what we pray for is the existence of a
> country that wouldn't have to!

On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 11:42:18PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: It always will need to be, just like on a Purim Meshulash the
: reading is pushed off until Sunday.

Yom haAtzma'ut can't fall out on Shabbos.

-Micha

1) It is part of a package deal, the first part of which can fall on 
Shabbat.
2) When we go back to setting the month based on witnesses, it could 
fall on Shabbat.

Ben

On 5/2/2017 2:38 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Yom haAtzma'ut can't fall out on Shabbos.
>
> -Micha

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 11:42:18PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> : It always will need to be, just like on a Purim Meshulash the
> : reading is pushed off until Sunday.
>
> Yom haAtzma'ut can't fall out on Shabbos.
>


5 Iyyar certainly can fall out on Shabbat, and as it happens it doe so in
exactly the same years when there is Shushan Purim Meshulash:

Adar has 29 days and Nisan 30, so from 15 Adar to 5 Iyyar is 29 + 30 - 10 =
49 days or exactly 7 weeks.
In other words, Shushan Purim and Yom Ha`Atzmaut (when not postponed or
advanced) are always on the same day of the week.

This last happened nine years ago in 5768 and will happen again in 5781
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 Gemara AZara 58a
- R Yochanan b Arza and R Yosiy b Nehuroi, were drinking wine
- they requested someone nearby to fix their drinks.
After he fulfilled their request
they realised he was not Jewish.

May they drink the wine, is the Gemara's Q.

But how could they make such a mistake?
And how might the wine be permitted?

the Gemarah 58b explains
it was clear to the G that the Sages were Jewish,
it was also clear that he thought that they knew he was not Jewish,
and it was also clear that he as a non-J knew
that if he handled the wine, they wold not be permitted to drink it

So he thought - they MUST be drinking mead
[which he may handle and mix for them]
so even though he was actually handling wine,
thinking it was mead, he would not make his usual pagan worship
and so it did not become disqualified.

So here is the tough part
HE was CERTAIN they knew he was not J
[that's why he was certain that they were drinking mead and not wine]
however the truth was
they DID IN FACT THINK he was J
[and that is why they did invite him to fix their wine drinks]

could this happen today?
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The story is told of the Chafetz Chayim, zt"l, that he asked one of his visitors who had come from a great distance,
"How are you??  which in Yiddish is, "Vos makhst du," literally, "What do you do?" So in answer to this inquiry, the visitor replied, 
"Thank God, I have a thriving business, I have no financial problems, I have a beautiful home with a swimming pool,? etc. etc. 
The Chafetz Chayim repeated, "Vos makhst du?" and the visitor, a bit confused as to why the question was repeated, gave the same reply.
So for the third time, the same question was asked of the visitor, at which point the visitor looked at the saint and he said: 
?I don?t understand why you asked me three times 'How I am.?  I told you that thank God, I have a thriving business, a lot of money, a beautiful home, etc.?  
The Chafetz Chayim replied:  ?You don?t understand. You told me what GOD is
doing for YOU, but I asked, 'What are YOU doing?' I therefore repeat: 'Vos
makhst du?'"
 
How does this apply to Israel Independence Day?  We know what Israel has done for US. 
The question remains: What are we doing for Israel, and what are we doing for each other?  
May we become ?Independent" enough to help others who "depend" on us.

Cong Or Torah in Skokie said tachanun at shacharit, but not at mincha
on erev Yom Ha-Atzmaut.    On YhA, at ma'ariv we added additional
tehillim at the end of davening, as found in the Koren siddur for Yom
HaAtzmaut. At shacharit we did not say tachanun and davened full hallel
(but w/out a bracha at the beginning and end.)    Betwen mincha and
ma'ariv on erev YhA, Rabbi Engel gave a similar drash, adding that it
is a beautiful thing that all of klal yisrael, observant, or not yet
observant, accepts that the day of celebration is as celebrated in
Israel, even when it is moved to avoid chilul shabbat.     He added
that it is fitting and proper that we, as a dati community care about
those who are not yet observant, rather than say, we will observe YhA
on hey Iyar and not care about what others will do.

Kol tuv,
Avi
Avram Sacks

On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 02:39:34PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
:  Gemara AZara 58a ...
: the Gemarah 58b explains ...

: So he thought - they MUST be drinking mead
: [which he may handle and mix for them]
: so even though he was actually handling wine,
: thinking it was mead, he would not make his usual pagan worship
: and so it did not become disqualified.
...
: could this happen today?

Their wine was this thick syrup that required dilution (mezigas hakos)
to be drinkable. They also often had to add spices and/or honey to make
it palatable. Inomlin / yinomlin (spelled with a leading alef or yud,
depending on girsa; Shabbos 20:2, AZ 30a) was wine mixed with honey and
pepper (Shabbos 140a).

So, if the grapes were particularly sour, and more honey was added,
perhaps it wasn't that easy to determine that it was wine (enomlin)
and not meade.

A problem 2 millenia of vintners eliminated through breeding better
grapes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

Beautiful sentiments, to be sure, but 100% emotional and 0% halachic. 
Was there live music on 6 Iyar?

KT,
YGB

On 5/2/2017 2:50 PM, Avram Sacks via Avodah wrote:
> Cong Or Torah in Skokie said tachanun at shacharit, but not at mincha
> on erev Yom Ha-Atzmaut.    On YhA, at ma'ariv we added additional
> tehillim at the end of davening, as found in the Koren siddur for Yom
> HaAtzmaut. At shacharit we did not say tachanun and davened full hallel
> (but w/out a bracha at the beginning and end.)    Betwen mincha and
> ma'ariv on erev YhA, Rabbi Engel gave a similar drash, adding that it
> is a beautiful thing that all of klal yisrael, observant, or not yet
> observant, accepts that the day of celebration is as celebrated in
> Israel, even when it is moved to avoid chilul shabbat.     He added
> that it is fitting and proper that we, as a dati community care about
> those who are not yet observant, rather than say, we will observe YhA
> on hey Iyar and not care about what others will do.

Akrasia is a classical Greek term for why we so often don't do what
we believe. In more mesoretic terms -- the problem of akrasia is the
question of "what is the yeitzer hara?"

In http://www.thebookoflife.org/akrasia-or-why-we-dont-do-what-we-believe
there is an interesting piece on how ritual helps solve akrasia. It might
help one's qabbalas ol mitzvos:

   ...
   There are two central solutions to akrasia, located in two unexpected
   quarters: in art and in ritual. The real purpose of art...

(Fans of RAYK or Dr Nathan Birnbaum might want to read the part I'm skipping
here.)

   Ritual is the second defence we have against akrasia. By ritual, one
   means the structured, often highly seductive or aesthetic, repetition
   of a thought or an action, with a view to making it at once convincing
   and habitual. Ritual rejects the notion that it can ever be sufficient
   to teach anything important once - an optimistic delusion which the
   modern education system has been fatefully marked by. Once might be
   enough to get us to admit an idea is right, but it won't be anything
   like enough to convince us it should be acted upon. Our brains are
   leaky, and under-pressure of any kind, they will readily revert to
   customary patterns of thought and feeling. Ritual trains our cognitive
   muscles, it makes a sequence of appointments in our diaries to refresh
   our acquaintance with our most important ideas.


   Our current culture tends to see ritual mainly as an antiquated
   infringement of individual freedom, a bossy command to turn our
   thoughts in particular directions at specific times. But the defenders
   of ritual would see it another way: we aren't being told to think of
   something we don't agree with, we are being returned with grace to what
   we always believed in at heart. We are being tugged by a collective
   force back to a more loyal and authentic version of ourselves.

   The greatest human institutions to have tried to address the problem of
   akrasia have been religions. Religions have wanted to do something much
   more serious than simply promote abstract ideas, they have wanted to
   get people to behave in line with those ideas, a very different thing.
   They didn't just want people to think kindness or forgiveness were nice
   (which generally we do already); they wanted us to be kind or forgiving
   most days of the year. That meant inventing a host of ingenious
   mechanisms for mobilising the will, which is why across much of the
   world, the finest art and buildings, the most seductive music, the most
   impressive and moving rituals have all been religious. Religion is a
   vast machine for addressing the problem of akrasia.

   This has presented a big conundrum for a more secular era. Bad
   secularisation has lumped religious superstition and religion's
   anti-akrasia strategies together. It has rejected both the supernatural
   ideas of the faiths and their wiser attitudes to the motivational roles
   of art and ritual.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

There is an oversimplification here, that the issue is the secular. Yom 
Hazikaron/Yom Azmaut are unique in that they are pushed off even if they 
don't start on Shabbat but even on Motzash. Getting the country ready 
for these days means hundreds, thousands of people have to be in place. 
This includes soldiers, policemen, etc who are 100% dati.

Holding these events on a date that would force these people to work on 
Shabbat is simply a non-starter and everyone understands that point.

I have to add the following: My dream is that people will come to 
understand how wrong it is to make people (including dati'im) work on 
Shabbat when Lag B'omer falls on Motzash and will take the appropriate 
steps.
Ben

On 5/2/2017 8:50 PM, Avram Sacks wrote:
 > He added that it is fitting and proper that we, as a dati community 
care about those who are not yet observant, rather than say, we will 
observe YhA on hey Iyar and not care about what others will do.

since these holidays are nidche in any year pesach doesnt start on thurs,
does anyone know when this practice developed? was it encoded this way
already in the 50's?
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On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 7:30 AM, saul newman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> since these holidays are nidche in any year pesach doesnt start on thurs,
> does anyone know when this practice developed? was it encoded this way
> already in the 50's?
>

To be precise, they are only nidche if Pesah starts on Tuesday, like this
year. If it starts on Shabbat or Sunday they are brought forward to
Wednesday & Thursday. If my memory is accurate, the bringing forward has
always been in practice, but the postponement from Sunday-Monday to
Monday-Tuesday was introduced later, within the last 10 or 20 years. When I
was first in Israel in the 1980s, YHA was still sometimes observed on a
Monday.
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On 5/3/2017 12:30 AM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> since these holidays are nidche in any year pesach doesnt start on 
> thurs, does anyone know when this practice developed? was it encoded 
> this way already in the 50's?

It was instituted during the tenure of Rabbis Amar and Metzger.


[Email #2. -micha]

On 5/3/2017 12:48 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> There is an oversimplification here, that the issue is the secular. 
> Yom Hazikaron/Yom Azmaut are unique in that they are pushed off even 
> if they don't start on Shabbat but even on Motzash...

> I have to add the following: My dream is that people will come to 
> understand how wrong it is to make people (including dati'im) work on 
> Shabbat when Lag B'omer falls on Motzash and will take the appropriate 
> steps.

That's fine. A secular holiday can and should be pushed off. But it is
no longer a religious holiday that can allow someone to say Hallel --
certainly -- with a bracha and push off sefirah minhagim. The Halachically
viable basis for Hallel and simcha during sefirah is only applicable to
5 Iyar.

KT,
YGB



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