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Volume 35: Number 49

Sat, 08 Apr 2017

• 1. RSZA on kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Afikoman - ?Stealing? and Other Related Minhagim (Professor L. Levine)
• 3. Re: staam daat (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Pshat in a word in Parashat Tzav (Henry Topas)
• 5. Re: Pshat in a word in Parashat Tzav (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Pshat in a word in Parashat Tzav (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Afikoman - ?Stealing? and Other Related Minhagim (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: order of the then seder (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: order of the then seder (Joshua Meisner)
• 10. Re: order of the then seder (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: order of the then seder (Allan Engel)
• 12. Re: order of the then seder (Micha Berger)
• 13. Avoiding Kitniyos in Israel (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: kitniyot (Akiva Miller)

from halichot shlomo volume on Pesach p89 (pe-tet)
BTW the sefer contains 3 sections ; main, dvar halacha and orchot halacha.
I am assuming that all 3 are from RSZA or notes of students.

I will do my best in the translation but have added some of the notes in
Hebrew

RSZA says the minhag is not to use cottonseed oil on Pesach (mimetic - who
determines this minhag?)
He brings that the CA prohibited potatos !! but that this psak was never
accepted. because they can't be confused with wheat. He adda that PERHAPS
there is a reason to prohibit potato flour (serach kitniyot - based on
chiddishin of RSZA to Pesachim).
Certainly, cakes made from matza flour should certainly be prohibited (ie
even according to those that eat gebrochs) (yesh ladun behem - Pesachim 40b
- Rashi that when people are "mezalzel one should be machmir)

In the notes that this was what RSZA said in shiurim and when asked a
question responded that one should follow the family minhag. Nevetheless he
remarked several times that cakes with matzah flour that look like chametz
cakes that he didn't understand the heter when we go to lengths to avoid
things that might be confused with chametz

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Please the article at

http://seforim.blogspot.com/2017/04/afikoman-stealing-and-other-re
lated.html

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R' Joel Rich asked:
> ... Is there an equivalent theory in interpersonal issues? (e.g.,
> I want you to take possession of this object, whatever chazal
> says works, that?s what I want to think/occur). [related to daat
> makneh and koneh issues]

I think Mishne Berura 649:15 might be exactly what you're looking for. I am
paraphrasing him, and he was paraphrasing the Magen Avraham and Pri
Megadim. But basically, the point is:

>>> Suppose it is the first day of Sukkos, and you want to use someone
else's lulav, but you can't, because on the first day you need to own it
yourself. So l'chatchila, the best option is make it explicit that you want
to acquire his lulav in a "matana al m'nas l'hachzir" (gift on condition of
returning) manner.

>>> But b'dieved, if you borrowed it in a "stam" manner so that you could
be yotzay with it, then we presume that he gave it to you intending to do
it in whatever manner would allow you to be yotzay, namely, "matana al
m'nas l'hachzir".

>>> However, if you explicitly used the word "borrow" rather than "gift",
then you would not be yotzay. Also, if the lulav's owner is unaware that a
borrowed lulav is pasul, it would not work then either.

(End of Mishne Brura.) Here's my commentary: There are two requirements for
"stam daas" to help us here. The first is that the conversation must be
vague, because if it were explicit we would not be able to assign a meaning
to the words.

But the second requirement is very relevant to RJR's question: The lulav's
owner has to be aware that a borrowed lulav is pasul. If the owner does
have that awareness, then we say that his stam daas was to grant ownership
to you. But if the lulav's owner is not aware of this halacha, then his
stam daas is to *lend* the lulav, which would not be valid. We see from
this that "stam daas" is not a magic wand that can be applied conveniently
to any vague comment. Rather, it is applied with a lot of care and
understand of what the person's likely intention really was.

Please read the MB yourself and see what he means. Even better, check out
the MA and PM that the MB was summarizing (because I did not go into that
much depth. Maybe over Shabbos.)

[Press Pause button... Okay, continue...]

I have now reread RJR's post, and I noticed that while the MB ruled how the
halacha views these two people and the lulav, RJR's post is much more
"me"-oriented. He asks about the case where
> I have in mind ?whatever HKB?H wants me to have in mind
> without actually knowing what that is ..."

It seems to me that this is an explicit vagueness. If "stam daas" works
where outsiders are trying to figure out what Ploni probably meant, it
should certainly work where Ploni himself is being deliberately vague.

I never studied Logic to the depth that R' Micha and other have, but even I
can see a serious flaw in the above paragraph. In the MB's case of the
lulav, the owner had *something* in mind, and we are presuming to know what
it was. But in RJR's case, the individual made an effort have nothing in
mind at all, and I can easily understand someone who says that this simply
won't work.

I would suggest this as a practical solution: One should never say simply,
"I have in mind whatever Hashem wants me to have in mind," because that is
essentially admitting that he really has nothing in mind. Rather, one
should use an explicit tenai: "If Hashem wants me to have A in mind, then I
do have A in mind; but if He wants me to have B in mind, then I do have B
in mind."

Akiva Miller





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> Vayikra 6:21 has the phrase v'im b'lich nechoshet bushala which RSRH
> translates as "if it be cooked in a copper vessel".

> Question: I would normally expect the word "bushala" to end with a mapik
> heh under my understanding and also be milera.

Upon reviewing the pshat in the word "bushala", it is possible that
my understanding was incorrect and the structure would be similar to
"yochLUha" where the translation of the suffix in both cases is "it"
as opposed to "its" and thus not requiring a mapik heh.

Shabbat Shalom,
HT

On 06/04/17 18:27, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote:
> Vayikra 6:21 has the phrase v'im b'lich nechoshet bushala which RSRH
> translates as "if it be cooked in a copper vessel".
>
> Question: I would normally expect the word "bushala" to end with a mapik
> heh under my understanding and also be milera.

It's a verb, not a noun.  If it were written as you would have it it 
would be a noun, presumably meaning "its cooking", but then it would be 
"bishulah".


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 06:27:30PM -0400, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote:
: Vayikra 6:21 has the phrase v'im b'lich nechoshet bushala which RSRH
: translates as "if it be cooked in a copper vessel".
: 
: Question: I would normally expect the word "bushala" to end with a mapik
: heh under my understanding and also be milera.

That would make it a posessed noun, "if its cooking was in a copper
vessel".

RSRH is treating is as a verb. In more contemporary American English,
"if it had been cooked in a copper vessel".

:-)BBii!
-Micha

> http://seforim.blogspot.com/2017/04/afikoman-stealing-an
> d-other-related.html

My father gives presents to all those children who *don't* steal.  He 
also explains that if the hidden matzah is stolen he will not pay any 
ransom for it but will simply use a different matzah.  Thus the purpose 
of the minhag is preserved but the bad chinuch is avoided.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 12:10:26PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: is there any clue as to how the seder was conducted when there was a korban
: pesach?

I assume koreikh was the norm. Not that Hillel argued they were necessary
and no one else made wraps, but that everyone made a wrap, which is why
a machloqes could arise as to whether one is yotzei if not.

: i think we all agree that the matzot to make a korech were soft matzot [and
: presumably mashiach will rule that's the way we should all be making them ].

One could be yotzei koreikh just putting a tiny lump of meat on a
cracker. Not difficult.

OTOH, we seem to have proven in numerous years that until the acharonic
period, softa matzos were the norm in every community. (Ashkenazim too;
see the Rama.)

: if the zaytim were like larger then, would the sandwich have been the size
: of a big mac? or half a pizza?

But they were smaller, so no problem.

Another perrennial is whether the growth of the kezayis is halachically
binding even after archeology proved the historical assumptions wrong.

: kiddush would have started the meal...

And Ha Lachma Anya would have been 4 days before, as you can only invite
people to join the chaburah BEFORE the sheep is set aside.

For that matter, I'm convinced Ha Lachma Anya is not part of Maggid.
Maggid ought to begin with questions, so let's assume it does. HLA
is an explanation of Yachatz. And then, once we fact out qwhat it's like
to have to ration our lachma anya, we express empathy for the dirtzrikh
and dichpin.

So perhaps Yachatz too would be before picking the sheep.

. then some form of maggid [ 3 hrs
: long? would the korban be edible that many hours later?].

Sure! How quickly does meat go bad where you live?

It looks like there is a fundamental machloqes about the seider. Notice
that Rabban Gamliel wasn't present at R' Aqiva's seider in Benei Beraq.
OTOH, in the Tosefta at the end of Pesachim Rabban Gamliel hosts big
seider in Lod, where they spent the whole night "osqin behilkhos haPesach".
(This Tosefta goes with "ein maftirin achar haPesach afiqoman". A whole
answer-to-the-chakham vibe here.)

Notice that at R' Aqiva's seider "vehayu mesaperim beytzi'as mitzrayim".
R' Aqiva held that a seider is all about the story. R' Gamliel -- the
mitzvos.

Most of Maggid we do R' Aqiva style:

1- We follow R' Yehudah, and tell the story of physical redemption. Avadim
Hayinu.

2- Then (after an intermission in which we explain why we're doing
multiple versions -- 4 banim, etc...) we follow Rav, and tell the story
of spiritual redemption. Betechilah ovedei AZ.

3- And we tell the story using Vidui Biqurim and other texts.

4- Then, at the very end, we make sure to do the least necessary to be
yotzei according to Rabban Gamliel.

So it would seem we basically hold like R' Aqiva, that the main role of
the foods is as aids to the story-telling.

But Rabban Gamliel would have Maggid as /during/ the other mitzvos of
the seider. We discuss the foods.

: washed and then what?  hamotzi on 3 matzos? but the mitzva matza  was to
: eat the korech no?   so the rest of the meal was not matza followed by
: marror, but rather that of korech.  so then the chiyuv-matza was the
: afikoman matza?  or people would have chazon ish'ed it up twice---at the
: matza they washed on and again on korech?

The afiqoman was the sheep, all matzos umorerim. Before that was the
chagiga, re'iyah and shulchan oreikh.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 3:10 PM, saul newman via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> is there any clue as to how the seder was conducted when there was a
> korban pesach?

The Rambam in Ch. 8 of Hil. Chametz uMatzah provides a step-by-step
description of the seder that includes the eating of the Korban Pesach,
which is probably a good start.

On 07/04/17 11:44, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> And Ha Lachma Anya would have been 4 days before, as you can only invite
> people to join the chaburah BEFORE the sheep is set aside.

Not true.  One can join or leave a chavurah right up to the moment of 
shechitah.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Surely either we'd pasken like Hillel, and eat the full portion of Pesach,
Matza and Maror in one sandwich, or else we wouldn't, and there'd be no
Korech at all?

On 7 April 2017 at 16:44, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
>
> One could be yotzei koreikh just putting a tiny lump of meat on a
> cracker. Not difficult.
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On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 05:58:36PM +0100, Allan Engel wrote:
: Surely either we'd pasken like Hillel, and eat the full portion of Pesach,
: Matza and Maror in one sandwich, or else we wouldn't, and there'd be no
: Korech at all?

I assume everyone ate koreikh. It's most reasonable to assume that
a machloqes over an annual practice kept by everyone is theoretical,
not pragmatic. Not that one person is saying what a significant number
of people are doing is pasul / assur.

For similar reasons, I assume that until the rishonim, people considered
both Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam tefillin to be kosher. Otherwise, how were
both styles in existence and common use since the days of the Chashmonaim
until some 1,300 years later when rishonim started voicing preferences?

Note my use of the phrase, "I assume". Li mistaber, I have no strong
arguments for it.

Back to our topic...

I figure everyone ate the matzah, marror and lamb in a wrap. Otherwise,
how did Hillel come around and argue that what everyone was doing was
pasul? And why would it stay with Hillel, wouldn't he have the Sanhedrin
vote on it?

Rather, the machloqes was whether one was yotzei if they did the weird
thing and eat them separately. If this was a rare event, multiple
opinions could persist without resolutions.

Now when it came time to commemorate, rather than fulfill the mitzvah....

Matzah we have to eat separately from maror, because without the pesach,
there may be a problem with our fulfilling the mitzvah of eating matzah
without it being the only tast in the mouth.

And then there's the question of what are we commemorating -- eating
all three in one meal, and the wrap aspect was not a critical facet that
needs commemoration, or are we commemorating a wrap?

So, we do both.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 09:05:30PM +0000, Professor L. Levine wrote:
: My son who lives in EY told me that Ashkenazim have to very careful
: about the products that they purchase for Pesach, since many products
: that are certified for Pesach contain kitnios. The item below reinforces
: this.

...
: Eretz Yisrael: Strauss Cottage Cheese Contains Kitnios
: 
: April 3, 2017- from the Arutz 7
: <ht
: tp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1248916/phot
: os-eretz-yisrael-strauss-cottage-cheese-contains-kitnios.html>
: 
: "Badatz Mehadrin, the hashgacha of Rabbi Avraham Rubin Shlita, alerts...

I was wondering about this.

Qitniyos is batel berov.

Ah, you may say: but they're intentionally mixing in the qitniyos, there
is no bitul!

So here's my question:
If a Sepharadi makes cottage cheese containing qitniyos, he isn't really
having Ashkenazim in particular in mind. And for him the qitniyos are
mutar. By parallel, a non-Jew mixing 1:61 basar bechalav for his own use
or for a primarily non-Jewish customer base isn't bitul lkhat-chilah, as
a permitted person's intent doesn't qualify as lekhat-chilah.

So, does this Sepharadi man mixing qitniyos in run afowl of the problem
of bitul lekhat-chilah?

Why can't one argue that as long as the qitniyos is a mi'ut of the
cottage cheese, and as long as it's not against the mixer's own minhag
or that of the main bulk of people for whom he is mixing, the food is
permissible for Ashkenazim too?

And does it have to be both the mixer's own minhag AND that of most of
the people the cottage cheese if for? After all, this is minhag, not
pesaq. It's not like an Ashkenazi holds a Saphradi ought to be holding
like us too. What if an Ashkenazi was doing the mixing on a product
where most of the target customer base is Sepharadi?

(Now, add to that mei qitniyos, and whether corn should have been added
to the minhag, the observation that it is primarily NOT made for Ashkenazi
Jews, and ask the same thing about Coca Cola.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

<<< I agree with others that in the DL community in EY there has been
a backlash against kitniyot chumrot and large shiurim. >>>

Is this only in the DL community? If so, can anyone suggest why this
would be so?

I can this of two very different possibilities: One is negative, that
there is some sort of jealousy to the sefardim, or taavah for the many
products that are available. The other is positive, that this is
simply a natural development of how minhagim change over the centuries
when communities mix.

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