Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 48

Fri, 07 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: staam daat (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Al Zeh Gazru VeAl Zeh Lo Gazru (Lisa Liel)
• 3. Re: kitnoyot (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: kitnoyot (Micha Berger)
• 5. kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 6. order of the then seder (saul newman)
• 7. Re: Shabbas Hagadol (Jay F. Shachter)
• 8. Matzah Meat (was Kitnios (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: kitnoyot (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: kitnoyot (Micha Berger)
• 11. P.O.P. Paradox Of Pesach (Cantor Wolberg)
• 12. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Shabbas Hagadol (Micha Berger)
• 14. Pshat in a word in Parashat Tzav (Henry Topas)

On 06/04/17 08:28, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Secondly, Is there an equivalent theory in interpersonal issues? (e.g.,
> I want you to take possession of this object, whatever chazal says
> works, that?s what I want to think/occur).

Isn't that *exactly* what we do when we write in a shtar that we 
stipulate to having made whichever kind of kinyan is most effective 
("be'ofan hayoser mo`il")?  We don't know which of the various kinyanim 
we should be doing so we stipulate that whichever one it is, we did it.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 4/6/2017 6:07 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> We all assume we can't have new gezerot. Is this really true?
...
> In essence these are all new gezerot perhaps without the nomenclature

The nomenclature is vital. As I said in my previous email, we don't blur
the distinctions between d'Orayta and d'Rabbanan, and we don't blur the
distinctions between gezeirot, takkanot, chramim, siyagim, minhagim, etc.

Yes, it's forbidden to eat chicken parmesan. And it's forbidden to eat a
pork chop. There's no wiggle room. Both are forbidden. So to someone
on the outside, those prohibitions might look like the same thing,
"perhaps without the nomenclature". But the nomenclature matters,
because there are different rules for the two. Just as there are
different rules for the various "add-ons".

Lisa

> Are you suggesting that the frozen non-gebroks pancakes that I can buy 
> in the store today are a bigger problem than the matza meal pancakes 
> that my mother made at home?

Matza meal pancakes, which I grew up with as well, are nothing at all 
like regular pancakes.  The difference is clear and obvious. Ditto for 
cakes.  We used to have sponge cake at Pesach.  And we thought of it as 
a Pesach cake.  It wasn't something we had all year.

I don't have a problem with fake treyf.  So I don't really have a huge 
problem with fake chametz.  But to pretend that there's no difference 
between what we used to have in the 60s, 70s, etc, and today is just 
silly.  The difference is enormous.  And while I don't have a huge 
problem with fake chametz, I see another distinction between fake 
chametz and fake treyf.  You can't ever eat bacon.  So making fake bacon 
is reasonable.  But fake chametz?  Really?  We can't make it a week 
without waffles and pizza and pretzels?

[Email #2. -micha]

On 4/6/2017 6:21 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Actually, you and I agree on that too. I think that minhagim should be
> mimetically defined, by definition, and therefore it's only a very
> overwhelming sevara that says the minhag is damaging that should change
> a minhag.

WADR, while you're entitled, of course, to think this, the concept of 
mimetics does not exist in halakha, and cannot therefore be determinative.

Lisa

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 08:03:23PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: WADR, while you're entitled, of course, to think this, the concept
: of mimetics does not exist in halakha, and cannot therefore be
: determinative.

Puq chazi mah ama devar.  -Hillel

Al teshanu minhag avoseikhem.  -Abayei

For that matter, the topic here is qitniyos -- which is itself a minhag
avos, not halakhah.

It's also impossible to learn much AhS (or even MB) without encoutnering
cases where the savara-ly weaker pesaq is supported because it's the
accepted ruling in practice.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

<<Actually, you and I agree on that too. I think that minhagim should be
mimetically defined, by definition, and therefore it's only a very
overwhelming sevara that says the minhag is damaging that should change
a minhag.>>

I am confused by the term mimetic. I understand it in the sense of
tradition,
We are discussing various situations that didn't exist years ago,
My parents didnt use Canola oil because it was not available but they did
use cottonseed oil.
What is my mimetic custom for lechitin?

When I grew up we had mainly macaroon cookies. Any cakes even with matza
meal tasted and looked different than chametz items.

No one I knew used CI shiurim. In EY on the radio I still hear about the
necessity of using CI shiurim at least lechatchila.
I agree with others that in the DL community in EY there has been a
backlash against kitniyot chumrot and large shiurim. I recently heard a
shiur from R. Aviner attacking much of these chumrot and R. Lior also has
many kulot and these are considered right wing DL rabbis.

As I stated before one difference between EY and the US is the existence of
a large charedi sefardi community, This gives rise to kitniyot products
with top level hasgachot. The easy availability of soft matzaot etc.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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is there any clue as to how the seder was conducted when there was a korban
pesach?

i think we all agree that the matzot to make a korech were soft matzot [and
presumably mashiach will rule that's the way we should all be making them ].

if the zaytim were like larger then , would the sandwich have been the size
of a big mac? or half a pizza?

kiddush would have started the meal . then some form of maggid [ 3 hrs
long? would the korban be edible that many hours later?]  .  so people
washed and then what?  hamotzi on 3 matzos? but the mitzva matza  was to
eat the korech no?   so the rest of the meal was not matza followed by
marror, but rather that of korech.  so then the chiyuv-matza was the
afikoman matza?  or people would have chazon ish'ed it up twice---at the
matza they washed on and again on korech?
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>
> ... This is another basis for the Shabbos preceding Pesach to be
> called the "Great Shabbos."
>

No, it is not.

Haggadol is not an adjective modifying Shabbath, because Shabbath is
feminine.  No one who speaks Hebrew uses masculine adjectives to
modify Shabbath, ever (pedantic footnote: except in the fixed
expression "Shabbath shalom umvorakh", which is said by people who
do speak Hebrew, but which for other reasons is clearly an idiomatic
expression that does not follow the rules of grammar, unless you want
to call it a mistake, which is also fine with me).

It is the same reason why we know that Lshon Hara` and `Eyn Hara` are
not nouns modified by adjectives, because lashon and `ayin are
feminine nouns.  No one who speaks Hebrew would ever use the masculine
adjective ra` to modify the feminine nouns lashon or `ayin.  They are
nouns modified by other nouns, and so is Shabbath Haggadol.

(Whether lshon hara` and `eyn hara` are the correct pronunciation
turns on whether the smikhuth forms in Rabbinic Hebrew are the same as
the smikhuth forms in Biblical and modern Hebrew, a question that is
irrelevant to the current discussion.  They are unquestionably
smikhuth forms, however they should be pronounced.)

This alone is not sufficient reason to reject your translation "The
Great Shabbos", because languages do not have to be translated
literally and word-for-word.  I do not reject the translation "the
holy tongue" for "lshon haqqodesh", even though "lshon haqqodesh"
literally means "the tongue of holiness", because languages do not
have to be translated literally.  If you want to translate "lshon
haqqodesh" as "the holy tongue", fine.

But you cannot do that with "Shabbath Haggadol", because we do not say
Shabbath Haggodel, or Shabbath Haggdula, we say "Shabbath Haggadol",
and gadol is an adjective, albeit a masculine one.  As for what it
does mean, well, if you want to say that Hagadol is a kinuy for God
("the Great One"), I think that is far-fetched, but I won't post an
article publicly saying that you are wrong.  It is clear to me that we
say Shabbath Hagadol for the same reason that we say Shabbath Xazon or
Shabbath Naxamu or Shabbath Shuva.  You may disagree.  But what you
cannot plausibly say is that it means "the great Shabbath".


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

At 02:03 PM 4/6/2017, Ben Waxman wrote:

>On 4/5/2017 12:51 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> > Does Rav Aviner think that they didn't use matza meal for cake? Anyone
> > who refrained from making such cake are the ones who refrained from
> > gebroks, right?
>
>Did they use the chunky, roughly ground matza meal that is good for
>matza balls and that's about it or the finely ground stuff that you can
>get today which is no different than cake flour?

I must admit that I have no idea what you are referring to when you 
write about "roughly ground matza meal."  Is this what is called cake 
meal?  If so, it is good for making many things.  See for example 
http://tinyurl.com/n6yo95b  Also, do a google search for cake meal 
recipes, and you will see how many recipes come up

I use "regular" matza meal to make matzah balls and they come out 
fine. See http://tinyurl.com/kl5tljs for a recipe for matza balls 
that calls for matza meal.

I have never seen shmura cake meal.  Has anyone?

YL 
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On 4/6/2017 8:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 08:03:23PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
>: WADR, while you're entitled, of course, to think this, the concept
>: of mimetics does not exist in halakha, and cannot therefore be
>: determinative.

> Puq chazi mah ama devar.  -Hillel
> Al teshanu minhag avoseikhem.  -Abayei
>
> It's also impossible to learn much AhS (or even MB) without encoutnering
> cases where the savara-ly weaker pesaq is supported because it's the
> accepted ruling in practice.

I'm pretty sure that's R' Yosei and not Abayei, but either way, puq chazi
is only when there's a doubt about the halakha. Not a principle that
we have to act on the basis of what other people are doing. An idea
that would enshrine errors and make fixing errors virtually impossible.

Lisa

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 11:30:40PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: >It's also impossible to learn much AhS (or even MB) without encoutnering
: >cases where the savara-ly weaker pesaq is supported because it's the
: >accepted ruling in practice.
: 
: I'm pretty sure that's R' Yosei and not Abayei, but either way, puq chazi
: is only when there's a doubt about the halakha. Not a principle that
: we have to act on the basis of what other people are doing. An idea
: that would enshrine errors and make fixing errors virtually impossible.

You are only discussing the absolutes, the case where the halakhah isn't
known, and that where it is, but common practice differs.

But in the part I left above, I described the gray area. There are cases
where the logic for one position is more compelling than the other,
but not muchrach. In fact, this is more common than a case where two
rishonim or noted acharonim disagree and one opinion is found to be
outright wrong. Between the brilliance of the people involved and the
"peer review" as to which ideas reach us, it is very rare for us to find
a true incontrovertable mistake, and even harder to know if we really did,
or if it is our own assessment that's in error.

In that situation, where we have to choose between multiple viable shitos,
there are a number of things a poseiq would weigh. Different schools of
pesaq may give each different weights. This kind of comparison of apples
and oranges requires real shiqul hadaas, and is why pesaq is an art, not
an algorithm.

This is my usual list of categories of factors that go into pesaq.

1- Textualiam
    1a- Logicalness of the rationale
    1b- Authority of those who back each postion: majority, expertise
        (eg the Rambam and Rosh carry more weight than some other
        rishonim)

2- Mimeticism

3- Aggadic concerns -- whether it's chassidim not wearing tefillin on ch"m
   or some of RSRH's innovations.

My point in #2 is that there are many times that we continue following
what we do because it has a sound textual basis -- even though some
other shitah may have a stronger such basis.

And again, this is minhag, not halakhah. The whole topic of qitniyos
rests on mimeticism, not formal halachic reasoning.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Problems are not stop signs,
mi...@aishdas.org        they are guidelines.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Robert H. Schuller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

A great ambivalence is to be found in the symbolism of the Seder.
On one hand, the white kitel is a manifestation of joy and purity,
and on the other hand, it is also the shroud of death. An egg is a
token of mourning, but at the Seder it recalls the korban chagigah,
the additional sacrifice brought to assure joy on Pesach. The 
matzah is the bread of affliction as well as the food of freedom baked in
haste as our forefathers rushed out of Egypt.  

The very word individual which refers to a single person ends with
DUAL. Pesach brings out the duality of man but through the unity
of the family, we are able to live with cognitive dissonance, paradox
and conflict.


?We may have different points of arguments from perspectives of belief, faith and religion.
But we must not hate each other. We are one human family.?		    
? Lailah Gifty Akita, (Think Great: Be Great!)

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On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 11:59:51PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> Actually, you and I agree on that too. I think that minhagim should be
:> mimetically defined, by definition, and therefore it's only a very
:> overwhelming sevara that says the minhag is damaging that should change
:> a minhag.

: I am confused by the term mimetic. I understand it in the sense of
: tradition,

Mimetic is from the shoresh mime, to copy. (Like a mimeograph.)

Mimeticism is Judaism as culture. Things like absorbing that "Shabbos
is coming" feeling of the erev Shabbos Jew. The pious Jew of today may
be able to work himself up emotionally on Yom Kippur, the mimetic Jew
of 100 years ago was simply terrified, without such work. (Both kinds
of religiosity have their pros and cons.)

Mimeticism evolves because culture evolves.

Textualism is also tradition. But it's the formal tradition passed off
from rebbe to talmid. RYBS's dialog down the ages that he watched gather
around his father's table, or later, in his own shiur room.

So the mimetic-textualist axis is not quite the same as the
tradition-ideology one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 02:46:29PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
: Haggadol is not an adjective modifying Shabbath, because Shabbath is
: feminine.  No one who speaks Hebrew uses masculine adjectives to
: modify Shabbath, ever (pedantic footnote: except in the fixed
: expression "Shabbath shalom umvorakh", which is said by people who
: do speak Hebrew, but which for other reasons is clearly an idiomatic
: expression that does not follow the rules of grammar, unless you want
: to call it a mistake, which is also fine with me).

What about Shabbos morning, and "veyanuchu vo"? The previous night it
was "vahh".

I agree with your thesis, I am more trying to get from you what the
masculine noun "vo" refers to.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

Vayikra 6:21 has the phrase v'im b'lich nechoshet bushala which RSRH
translates as "if it be cooked in a copper vessel".

Question: I would normally expect the word "bushala" to end with a mapik
heh under my understanding and also be milera.

Is my understanding of the word incorrect?

Kol tuv and Chag Kasher v'Sameach to all,

Henry Topas
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