Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 44

Tue, 04 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: The Halachic Adventures of the Potato (David Riceman)
• 2. Aruch HaShulchan and pouring wine at the Seder (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Bourbon no Longer an Automatic, Faces Kashrus Issues (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Good manners will open doors that the best education cannot. Clarence Thomas (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: The Halachic Adventures of the Potato (Zev Sero)
• 6. potatos on Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: potatos on Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Shul Practices (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Shul Practices (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: potatos on Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Aruch HaShulchan and pouring wine at the Seder (Akiva Miller)
• 12. Re: potatos on Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 13. Relying on the Avnei Nezer's Tenai for Afikoman (Professor L. Levine)
• 14. Re: Shul Practices (Akiva Miller)

> RZS:


> In fact I'll go further: I don't believe that there has ever been a 
> posek of any stature who forbade potatoes as kitniyos, nor any community 
> that ever accepted such a practice.  I have seen many sources claiming 
> that someone else, somewhere else forbade it, or that some other 
> community far away treats it as kitinyos, but never any first hand 
> acccount.   When the Rosh writes that in Provence they said Tal Umatar 
> from Marcheshvan 7th I believe it, because he was there and saw it with 
> his own eyes. But I have never seen anyone report having seen with his 
> own eyes a community that forbids potatoes, or a psak din to that 
> effect.  It's always someone else somewhere else. Until I see a first 
> hand account I don't believe it.
> 
This doesn?t quite fit RZS?s request, but I heard a story from a friend who gave a 
shiur making essentially RZS?s claim.  An elderly gentleman from Morocco told
him that in his (childhood) town no one ate potatoes on Pesah because they puff up when they
cook.  Admittedly my story is third hand, and is not related to gezeiras kitniyos,
but it is evidence that a community in Morocco forbade potatoes.

David Riceman
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At 11:57 AM 4/3/2017, Ben Bradley wrote:


>The Aruch HaShulchan was not happy with the minhag that the baal 
>haseder has his wine poured by someone else. He writes that it's a 
>bit haughty to order his wife to pour for him and that in his city 
>it was not the minhag.
>
>Aside from the interestingly contemporary sound of his concern, it 
>seems to me that the current widespread minhag is for everyone to 
>pour for everyone else, which would avoid the concern of the ArHaSh.
>
>
>1. Am I right that this is most people's practice?
  In my home the children poured my wine once they were big enough 
and now my older grandchildren do this.  And they pour for my wife also.

YL 
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From

http://tinyurl.com/kh92xxv


"Companies that once distilled just a few barrels of bourbon every year are
now churning out dozens of other drinks-Sherries, brandies, flavored
vodkas-which might not be kosher. They can contaminate the bourbon, Rabbi
Litvin said, if the liquors are run through the same pipes or tanks." The
Litvins, a family that lives in Louisville, "have taken it upon themselves
to keep bourbon kosher."


Despite the fact that Jews are proportionately poor Bourbon consumers (it
is an $8.5 billion industry), there has been a dramatic increase in demand
in recent years, particularly by younger kosher consumers. "Alcohol
consumption has definitely increased manifold," said one kosher wine and
spirits expert.  Heaven Hill, one of the largest liquor companies in the
world, is owned by a Jewish family, but only a few of the bourbons-Evan
Williams, the company's largest brand, and the high-end single-barrel
whiskeys-are still guaranteed to be kosher. The others are run through the
same pipes and storage tanks as other products, including untold flavors of
vodka, spiced rum and mint whiskey.

______________________________________________________________

I guess that I have been ahead of the trends,  because I have been drinking bourbon for decades and never liked Scotch.  YL

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One of my doors recently broke and I?m having a new one installed Wednesday.
It brought to mind a MIdrash I once learned telling of the basic distinctiveness
of the Jewish door and the secret of its architectural design, which served as a
protection against annihilation. 

?And strike the upper doorpost through the merit of Abraham, and the two side-posts,
in the merit of Isaac and Jacob. It was for their merit that HE saw the blood and would
not suffer the destroyer? (Midrash Rabbah XVII - 3 Exodus).

It set me to thinking. Aren?t the doors to a home indicative of the nature and character
of those who live beyond them? I began to think of doors with various emblems 
displayed upon them. Some say: ?We have given.? ?No Beggars or Peddlers Allowed.? 
?Nobody lives here,? etc.  But next Monday evening, the Jewish emblem on the entrance
door will say:  "Let all who are hungry, come and eat." 

On this Festival of Pesach, let not Judaism pass over our doors. When we open our
doors to welcome Eliyahu Hanavi, let us keep it open wide, to welcome all that is positive,
invigorating and creative in Jewish life. Let our doors be indicative of proud Jewish 
occupants. Let us display our Mezuzot not as mere adornments but as emblems which
proudly proclaim for all to see: ?We are proud to be the sons and daughters of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob; and we are determined to carry on in their tradition.

Grief is a room without doors but Passover?s power not only changes that
situation but it sends Eliyahu Hanavi right through. 
Truncated clich?, rw

On 03/04/17 15:50, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
>>
> This doesn?t quite fit RZS?s request, but I heard a story from a
> friend who gave a shiur making essentially RZS?s claim.  An elderly
> gentleman from Morocco told him that in his (childhood) town no one
> ate potatoes on Pesah because they puff up when they cook.
> Admittedly my story is third hand, and is not related to gezeiras
> kitniyos, but it is evidence that a community in Morocco forbade
> potatoes.

That comes close, but not close enough.  If the name of the town were 
given, so that one could track down other families from that town and 
verify it, then I'd accept it.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

*<<*This claim comes up regularly, but as far as I can tell it's not
true.  If anyone has actually seen this inside the Chayei (or Nishmas or
whatever) Adam, please correct me by citing the location >>

*Nishmas* *Adam*, *Hilchos* *Pesach*, Question 20 (from the article on
Potatos) mentions
retzke that are called tatarka which are used to make flour are kitniyot

My yiddish is very limited I saw one place that translated this as corn
while another used buckwheat

later on the Nishmas Adam talks about bulbus which is called erdeffel which
I saw a translation as potatos. If this translation is accurate then the
Nishmas Adam is quoting a bet din in Germany that allowed potatos on Pesach
in case of a major famine.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 11:17:00PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: This claim comes up regularly, but as far as I can tell it's not
: true.  If anyone has actually seen this inside the Chayei (or Nishmas or
: whatever) Adam, please correct me by citing the location >>
: 
: Nishmas Adam, Hilchos Pesach, Question 20 (from the article on
: Potatos) mentions
: retzke that are called tatarka which are used to make flour are kitniyot

It's Kelal 119, Q 20.

: later on the Nishmas Adam talks about bulbus which is called erdeffel which
: I saw a translation as potatos. If this translation is accurate then the
: Nishmas Adam is quoting a bet din in Germany that allowed potatos on Pesach
: in case of a major famine.

And so, as Zev pointed out, it is untrue that the CA advocated this
position. Which is what is commonly retold. (At least, in my experience.)
The Nishmas Adam merely reported that the ruling / custom exists.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Apr 02, 2017 at 01:15:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: What triggered the question was a shiur on yutorah where a pulpit
: rabbi mentioned that a visiting guest sfardi scholar asked in advance
: and was granted the right to read his own aliya. I was surprised and
: then thought of other situations that I had a similar reaction to.

Isn't there a problem that the second you let those who are able to lein
for themselves, you destroyed the minhag of leveling the playing field
with a baal qeri'ah?

Along thse lines, my father -- who certainly doesn't have to -- reads
the berachos from the card on the bimah. The whole procedure is built
around avoiding embarassing those less educated Jewishly. And today,
where so many who get aliyos may be newer baalei teshuvah who don't know
the berakhos by heart, shouldn't everyone read the berakhos, just the
way everyone has a shaliach do the reading?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The same boiling water
mi...@aishdas.org        that softens the potato, hardens the egg.
http://www.aishdas.org   It's not about the circumstance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but rather what you are made of.

On 03/04/17 16:47, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Along thse lines, my father -- who certainly doesn't have to -- reads
> the berachos from the card on the bimah. The whole procedure is built
> around avoiding embarassing those less educated Jewishly.

As I understand it, the purpose of reading the brachos from a card is 
to make it clear that one is not reading them from the Torah.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 03/04/17 16:17, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> This claim comes up regularly, but as far as I can tell it's not
>> true. If anyone has actually seen this inside the Chayei (or
>> Nishmas or whatever) Adam, please correct me by citing the
>> location

> Nishmas/ /Adam/, /Hilchos/ /Pesach/, Question 20 (from the article
> on Potatos)

Yes, I'm obviously aware of this reference, which *does not say* what so 
many people cite it as saying, because they saw it cited to that effect 
somewhere else, and have not bothered looking it up.  This is frankly 
getting up my nose, which is why I specified that I am not interested in 
citations that the poster has not looked up himself and verified that 
they actually say what they are represented as saying.


> mentions retzke that are called tatarka which are used to
> make flour are kitniyot My yiddish is very limited I saw one place
> that translated this as corn while another used buckwheat

Retchke, or Gretchke, means normal buckwheat (Fagopyrum esculentum). 
Tatarke means Tartary buckwheat (Fagopyrum tataricum).


> later on the Nishmas Adam talks about bulbus which is called
> erdeffel which I saw a translation as potatos.

Yes, bulbes are potatoes.  as in the famous song "Zuntik bulbes, Montik 
bulbes".


> If this translation is
> accurate then the Nishmas Adam is quoting a bet din in Germany that
> allowed potatos on Pesach in case of a major famine.

He reports having heard that in 1771-72 there was a famine and the 
community of Frth convened a beis din which permitted potatoes and 
kitniyos, but not buckwheat.  His purpose in citing this is simply to 
demonstrate that buckwheat is worse than kitniyos, since even in this 
extreme case they refused to permit it.  Of course this immediately 
causes the reader to wonder why they'd need a heter for potatoes, so he 
throws in the explanation that in Germany they don't eat them on Pesach.

Of course anyone who sees this can see immediately that (a) he reports 
this practise neutrally, without expressing any support for it, and (b) 
he doesn't claim first hand knowledge that it even exists, but merely 
repeat a rumour he'd heard about some other place.  Somehow, in the 
hands of irresponsible people, this seems to have transformed into the 
received wisdom that he forbade potatoes, or wanted to forbid them, or 
thought they ought to be forbidden, etc, none of which has the slightest 
tinge of truth, and it's perpetuated by lazy and dishonest people who 
repeat it as fact, complete with a fake citation which they have not 
bothered to verify.  This, in turn, by exaggerating the extent of 
gezeras kitniyos, is used to make it seem ridiculous, onerous, 
impractical, and ripe for reform.



On 03/04/17 16:43, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The Nishmas Adam merely reported that the ruling / custom exists.

and did so merely as a rumour.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

R' Ben Bradley wrote:

> it seems to me that the current widespread minhag is for
> everyone to pour for everyone else, which would avoid the
> concern of the ArHaSh.
>
> 1. Am I right that this is most people's practice?

The ArtScroll Haggadah says (in the instructions for Kiddush), "The
participants fill each others' cups", without mentioning any minhagim to
the contrary.

Rabbi Dovid Ribiat, in Halachos of Pesach, on pg 468, cites Haggada Kol
Dodi (Rav Dovid Feinstein) 7:2, writing:

> The Ramoh (473;1) specifies that the leader of the Seder
> should not fill his own cup, but should allow others to pour
> for him, as this displays cheirus (freedom).
>
> Although the wording of the Ramoh seems to imply that this
> requirement only applies to the host and leader of the Seder,
> the general custom is to do this for all the participants.
> Most people therefore pour the wine for each other at each
> juncture of the Four Cups.

Akiva Miller


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On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 05:30:34PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: >The Nishmas Adam merely reported that the ruling / custom exists.

: and did so merely as a rumour.

What he repeated was a story about someone making an exception to
their minhag. The explanation as to why the minhag was needed isn't
given as part of the story.

And if the CA puts the story into writing and uses in halachic argument,
he obviously thought it was more than mere rumor.

Still, not his own position, not even something he advised in theory,
even before ein hatzibur yakhol laamod bah considerations.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

 There is a shiur about this at

http://tinyurl.com/lowndcz


YL
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Isn't there a problem that the second you let those who
> are able to lein for themselves, you destroyed the minhag
> of leveling the playing field with a baal qeri'ah?

Yes, that's what MB 141:8 says.

Actually, that MB goes a bit farther, and points out that "harbeh" such
people *don't* know the laining so well, and the result is that the tzibur
isn't yotzay.

Akiva Miller


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