Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 42

Fri, 31 Mar 2017

• 1. Re: Shul Practices (Joshua Meisner)
• 2. Re: Shul Practices (Zev Sero)
• 3. Yom Geulah (Sholom Simon)
• 4. Re: Yom Geulah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Karov l?malchus 2017- to boldly go where no posek has gone before (Ben Rothke)
• 6. Bedikas Chometz BFOUR (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. Re: A Variation on the Four Sons (Micha Berger)
• 8. Geulah and Yeshua (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 9. Re: Bedikas Chometz BFOUR (Micha Berger)
• 10. The Halachic Adventures of the Potato ()
• 11. Elijah's cup (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Karov l?malchus 2017- to boldly go where no posek has gone before (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Chazakah that Changed (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Chazakah that Changed (Rich, Joel)

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Rich, Joel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Visiting a shul questions-actual practices and sources appreciated:
> ? Would your shul allow a guest to read his own Aliya?
>

In a related situation, some years back I was once the ba'al kri'ah on rosh
chodesh and the first oleh (non-kohen) asked if he could read his own
aliyah, and I agreed.  I was then called up for sheni and read my own
aliyah.  At this point, the rav stood up and insisted that I step down and
that the next two olim also read their own aliyos so as not to directly
draw a distinction between those who read their own aliyah and those who do
not.  The source for this objection would appear to be Bikkurim 3:7.  I do
not know of any more explicit source for this hakpada, but it appears to be
a sound s'vara.

Addressing your question, I would additionally find it problematic for the
shul to allow a guest to read his own aliyah without the consent of the
regular ba'al kri'ah.

Josh
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On 30/03/17 08:07, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Visiting a shul questions-actual practices and sources appreciated:
> ? Would your shul allow a guest to read his own Aliya?

Yes.

> ? Would your shul allow a guest to say his own nussach of kaddish (not
> as shatz)?

Yes.  Happens regularly with Sefardim saying the long form of Yehei Shlama.

> ? Would your shul (in galut) allow the shatz not to say baruch hashem
> l?olam in maariv?

We don't say it, but if someone wanted to say it I don't think anyone 
would object except maybe for the time it too.


> ? Would your shul allow a guest to say 13 middot aloud by Tachanun(if
> local practice is not to)?

again, we do say it but if a shatz didn't want to I think we'd just have 
someone else say it

> ? Would the answers be different if requested before prayer (vs. gabbai
> intervention at time of event)?

I don't think so.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

>Historically geulah happened once in our past - at yetzias Mitzrayim.
>To only one other event is the word geulah applied; and that is yet
>to come leosid lovo when God will send Moshiach Tzidkenu.

How does that square with the halacha that:

If there are two Adars, Purim is observed in Adar-II so that we can 
be somech g'uela l'geula?

-- Sholom

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:55:06AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: With Pesach around the corner I am reminded of something
: I learned years ago in the name of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik.
: There is a distinction between geulah and yeshua. The term
: geulah is applicable to occurrences brought forth by Hashem only;
: a yeshua may come through the media of a sh'liach or sh'lichim
: whom God has inspired to leadership in time of distress.
...
: Another distinction: for geulah we give thanks to the Almighty only;
: for a yeshuah we may add also our gratitude to those who were the
: sh'luchei haShem.

I'm confused. The first distinction means that for a ge'ulah there is
no one else to thank. What meaning does the second distinction have that
isn't a logical necessity of the first one?

Here's a third distinction I noticed.

Hashem had us do the qorban Pesach to prove we were redeemable. Ge'ulah
is only for those who show worth. (If not actually fully earned.)

Yeshu'os can be for the sake of a third party -- like Hashem saving
Lot from Sodom in Avraham's zekhus. And what's notable about such
yeshu'os, is that those who are saved are warned against looking down
at those who weren't. Ask Lot's wife.

And while yetzi'as Mitzrayim was a ge'uklah, qeri'as Yam Suf was
"Vayosha Hashem bayom hahu".

I used that idea to unify two ways of looking at Noach. There are two
Rashis with a pair of opinions in them near the start of the parashah:

1- Tamim hayah bedorosav -- is this to add to the complement, or to
   diminish it?

2- Was the tzohar a window, or a gem?

If the tzohar was a window, then Noach could see the others drown. So,
this is the view of Noach which takes "tamim" to be leshevach.

If it was a gem, he couldn't. Noach who was only a tzadiq "bedorosav"
couldn't watch the destruction for the same reason Lot couldn't.

And if we really want to stretch it, this can carry through to chazal's
ambivalence about rainbows. The tzohar-as-gem would imply a teiva that
had rainbows all over the walls. The rainbow as os beris would be tied
to being saved despite not earning it.

Noach who was tamim and deserved being saved had a window, and the
first rainbow was unrelated to memories the destruction.

Idea is explained at more length here
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/of-arks-and-rainbows

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

I?ve found that most people who?ve commented recently on the Jared and
Ivanka Kushner?s Shabbos observance, really didn?t understand the dynamics
of what is involved.



I wrote a piece on ?Karov l?malchus 2017- to boldly go where no posek has
gone before? that deals with that.   See http://rygb.blogspot.ca/2017/
03/karov-lmalchus-guest-post-by-ben-rothke.html



Let me know what you think.
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The number four plays a very important role in the observance of Pesach
and the Seder ceremonies. There are the arba parshios, the four special
Sabbaths before the holiday. There are the arba kosos, the arba kushyos and
the arba bonim. There are the four characteristic foods essential to the 
Seder ritual: 1) the Pesach (shank bone)  2) the matzah  3) maror, and
4) charoses             Finally, the holiday has four different names:
1) Chag hamatzos  2) Chag HaPesach  3) Chag Ha?aviv 
4) as well asZ?man Cheyruseynu

There is yet another ?four? associated with the preparation of Pesach and 
that pertains to the ceremony of bedikas chometz which has four distinct
steps. 1) recitation of the b?rocho before commencing the search 
2) the bedikah itself (looking for any traces of chometz)  3) the bitul, which
is the relinquishing of ownership, and 4) the biur chometz, the burning of
leftover chometz.

It is very interesting to note that the four terms involved all begin with the letter beis, 
suggesting that the four steps are all interrelated and closely connected.`



"Actually, I don?t even like parties. I would much prefer a room with FOUR friends
who sit around and have dinner. I detest nightclubs. And I don?t like places where
the noise is so loud you can?t talk to people."
Salman Rushdie
British Indian novelist and essayist

P.S. I feel the same as Salman Rushdie. I would have added I would much prefer a room with
four friends and ask them four questions.   rw

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 09:23:05AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: I wrote they are the questions of the SIMPLE son.
: What is your source that they are the questions "that the father
: prompts the fourth son to ask?"

First, logic... They are in the book, not spontaneous questions asked by
a wise or purehearted (or simple) son, nor the challenges of a wicked one.
They're prompted.

Second, the Yerushalmi.

The Mishnah (Pesachim 10:4) says: "They mix him the 2nd cup, and here
the son asks. If the son lacks the da'as to ask, his father teaches him
'Mah Nishatanah..." (Full text ellided.)

The Y-mi (vilna 70b) quotes R Chiyas as saying "Keneged 4 banim",
although in their version, #3 is a tipeish, and the Rasha makes
a point of talking about the annual tircha. Then, when answering the
She'eino Yodeia Lish'ol:
    At petach lo techilah.
    R Yusah said: The mishnah says as much: If there is insufficient
    da'as in the son, his father teaches him.

So R' Yusah explicitly links the mishnah's Mah Nishatanah to the 4th son.

OTOH, the Bavli (116a) appears to treat Mah Nishtanah as a separate text,
unrelated to sons asking real questions:
    If he is a chakham, the son asks him; and if he is not a chakham,
    his wife asks him; and if not, he asks himself. Even two talmidei
    chakhamim that know the laws of Pesach ask each other.

(I assume the "he is a chakham" refers to the son, and if the son can't
learn Mah Nishtanah, the wife says them.)

Seemingly, Mah Nishtanah not the same topic as the questions of the
four sons, as they need be said at every seder, even if you have to
"ask" yourself.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

On Mar 30, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I'm confused. The first distinction means that for a ge'ulah there is
> no one else to thank. What meaning does the second distinction have that
> isn't a logical necessity of the first one?

The answer is that for ge'ulah there is no one else to thank (as
you write). Geulah implies that God did it alone with no sh'liach
or sh'luchim.

The second distinction means that an agent carried out God's will.

Unfortunately, it is tempting to split hairs but the distinction still
remains in my thinking.

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 09:28:30PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: The number four plays a very important role in the observance of Pesach
: and the Seder ceremonies. There are the arba parshios, the four special
: Sabbaths before the holiday. There are the arba kosos, the arba kushyos and
: the arba bonim. There are the four characteristic foods essential to the 
: Seder ritual: 1) the Pesach (shank bone)  2) the matzah  3) maror, and
: 4) charoses             Finally, the holiday has four different names:
: 1) Chag hamatzos  2) Chag HaPesach  3) Chag Ha?aviv 
: 4) as well asZ?man Cheyruseynu

Is charoses an essential food? Isn't is just a condiment for maror --
and not even me'aqeiv? The wine, OTOH, is a mitzvah derabanan, getting
Rabbi Gamliel's 3 mitzvos deOraisa up to 4.

: There is yet another ?four? associated with the preparation of Pesach and 
: that pertains to the ceremony of bedikas chometz which has four distinct
: steps. 1) recitation of the b?rocho before commencing the search 
: 2) the bedikah itself (looking for any traces of chometz)  3) the bitul, which
: is the relinquishing of ownership, and 4) the biur chometz, the burning of
: leftover chometz.

Berakhos are not me'aqvos, so it can't be considered a significant part of
biur chameitz.

OTOH, I once claimed there are four elements to the concept of matzah:
1- We start with "Ha lachma anya -- this is the poor mans bread which our
forefathers ate in the land of Egypt..." The bread of servitude. "Lechem
oni -- bread of poverty."

2- Then we ask questions, and teach Maggid embodying the other idea of
"'lechem oni', sheonim alav devarim harbei -- that we answer upon it
many things."

3- We have the matzah upon which one must eat the qorban
pesach. Historically, this concept of matzah was given third, before
the actual redemption.

4- The matzah also represents the haste of the exodus itself. Rabban
Gamliel's is the matzah that we eat "because the dough lacked [the time]
to leaven before the King of Emperors. the Holy One blessed be He,
revealed Himself to them and redeemed them."

See http://www.aishdas.org/asp/lechem-oni
and http://www.aishdas.org/asp/who-knows-4

(The latter finds a theme of transformation in 4, linking the 4 cups to
the Rambam's 4 steps of teshuvah.)


There is also the four Barukhs in Barukh haMaqom.


:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

"The Halachic Adventures of the Potato" ? by R' Yitzchak Spitz
https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184
 
issues: why some poskim said the bracha should be shehakol, not  ha'adama
why potatoes are not kitniyos for Pesach even though you can make  flour
are they oleh al shulchan melachim re bishul akum?
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============



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<<The great prophet Elijah was the first to reject categorically this
misguided custom.
He warned Elisha to return to his mother and father, indicating that his
devotion to
his parents would in no way interfere with assuming the mantle of
leadership.  On
the contrary, true liberation comes from a life that has struck deep roots
in a
closely-knit family environment, where there prevails a union of hearts
between
parents and children and where positive attitudes and good relationships are
fostered. >>

Thats not the way I read the story. I assumed that Elijah was telling
Elisha that if you wish
you don't have to take the job of Navi and stay with your parents. He is
criticizing Elisha
for wanting to say good bye as a true Navi cuts himself off from his family
and is lonely (which was Elijah's life).
Yes part of the above message is true but we learn that from Elisha and not
Elijah.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I?ve found that most people who?ve commented recently on the Jared and
Ivanka Kushner?s Shabbos observance, really didn?t understand the dynamics
of what is involved.

I wrote a piece on ?Karov l?malchus 2017- to boldly go where no posek has
gone before? that deals with that.   See http://rygb.blogspot.ca/2017/03/karov-lmalchus-guest-post-by-ben-r
othke.html

Let me know what you think.
==============================
Actually there was quite a lot of discussion when Senator Lieberman was
running for VP(at least I did a shiur on it then ?).  I?m reminded of
R?Asher Weiss?s comment on lack of sh?ut on running an army and a state and
what?s a poseik to do (look back to Tanach, libi omer li?).
The poskim on karov lmalchut (see b?y and bach on y?d 179)offer differing
theories which have a real impact lmaaseh (e.g does it have to be hatzallat
all Yisrael) and don?t opine on how direct the connection must be. Also of
interest is differentiating between issues of dress and non ubchukoteihem
issues.
Perhaps the most important question is who to ask the question of.  One
interesting point made by the bach is perhaps the practice must be one they
otherwise wouldn?t have undertaken.
Kt
Joel Rich

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RYBS's famous attack on R' Rackman's beis din included the words
(from R' Ari Kahn's transcript at
<http://arikahn.blogspot.com/2013/03/rabbi-soloveitchik-talmud-tora
h-and.html>):

    V'chen hakofer b'perusha v'hu torah she b'al peh v'hamach'chish
    magideha; he who denies the perfection and the truthfulness of
    chachmei chazal -- not of the Torah, but of the chachmei chazal
    as personalities, as real persona as far as their character, their
    philosophy, or their outlook on the world is concerned -- is a kofer.

Which RALichtenstein believed was the primary thesis. And then this comment
on chazaqah:

   Let me add something that is very important: not only the halachos
   but also the chazakos which chachmei chazal have introduced are
   indestructible. We must not tamper, not only with the halachos,
   but even with the chazakos, for the chazakos of which chazal spoke
   rest not upon transient psychological behavioral patterns, but upon
   permanent ontological principles rooted in the very depth of the
   human personality, in the metaphysical human personality, which
   is as changeless as the heavens above. Let us take for example
   the chazaka that I was told about: the chazaka tav l'meisiv tan du
   mil'meisiv armalo has absolutely nothing to do with the social and
   political status of women in antiquity. This chazaka is based not
   upon sociological factors, but upon a verse in breishis -- harba
   arbeh itz'voneich v'heironeich b'etzev teildi vanim v'el isheich
   t'shukaseich v'hu yimshal bach -- "I will greatly multiply thy
   pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children, and
   thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".
   It is a metaphysical curse rooted in the feminine personality --
   she suffers incomparably more that the male who is in solitude. ....

(More of the same, there.)

While this argument is easier to invoke WRT tav lemeisiv, since there
is that pasuq, note that RYBS makes this a general rule

    the chazakos which chachmei chazal have introduced are
    indestructible. ... for the chazakos of which chazal spoke rest
    not upon transient psychological behavioral patterns, but upon
    permanent ontological principles rooted in the very depth of the
    human personality, in the metaphysical human personality, which is
    as changeless as the heavens above. Let us take for example

Tav lemeisiv is an example.

This is strange, because there is a counter-example in the Rama, in EhE
17:2
<https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Even_HaEzer.17.2?lang=bi&;w
ith=all&lang2=en>.
This is the very siman that addresses agunah!

Chazal have a chazaqah that a wife wouldn't brazenly lie in front of her
husband. So, if a woman insists in front of her husband that he divorced
her, she is believed.

The Rama says that nowadays, brazeness is too common, and the Ran says
this is only WRT to demanding a divorce to any subsequent marriage.
Hagahos Maimonis says we do not rely on this chazaqah to allow her to
collect her kesuvah. Veyeis omrim, it's only believed lechumera (BY in
the name of OC).

The Rambam does stick to Chazal's pesaq.

Either way, it's clear that these rishonim and the Rama did not think
that denying this particular chazaqah is kofer bepeirushah.

As I said, it's in the SA on this very topic. Hard to imagine RYBS didn't
have a distinction in mind...

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

Either way, it's clear that these rishonim and the Rama did not think
that denying this particular chazaqah is kofer bepeirushah.

As I said, it's in the SA on this very topic. Hard to imagine RYBS didn't
have a distinction in mind...

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Iirc some say that he meant tan du was based on a pasukI(tshukasech) whereas others may be based on observation
Kt
Joel rich
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