Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 36

Tue, 21 Mar 2017

• 1. Re: KaVuA and Kol DePoRish (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: super stores (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: How to become a kohein (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: KLP Chocolate - Are KLP Required? (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Rav Gustman and Baking Matzos (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. Re: How to become a kohein ()
• 8. Re: How to become a kohein (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: super stores (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Akiva Miller)
• 12. Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate non-KLP for Ashkenasim (Eli Turkel)

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 06:31:45AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: Clearly, where we have liquids that are combined there can be no Parish
: since we assume it is an even dispersion and every drop contains some of
: both parts of the mixture. I dont understand why this is relevant to my
: analysis of KaVuA and Kol DePoRish.

It's not. You mentioned kol deparish as a kind of taaroves. I don't think
the comparison holds because the halakhos of rov differ WRT ra'aroves
and qol daparish, and even WRT parish, between ruba deleisa leqaman and
ruba de'isa leqaman.

: In a non-liquid mixture, dwelling on the risk of whether one is eating a
: Kosher or a non-Kosher component...

Or, eating both.

A taaroves is not generally considered a safeiq about which part of the
taaroves one ate.

: Rov and KaVuA; it is what leads to the great confusion and unanswerable
: question - but the statistics of the meat being K or not K are identical be
: it that the meat is found in the street or we forgot which shop we entered
: to make our purchase.

Again, I consider the question very answerable, see the discussion of
RGN's shitah. Original text at
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2017/03/r-gedalia-nadels-explanation-of-ka
vua.html
Nobel laureatte R/Prof Aumann's theory based on "Moral Hazard", the
start of this thread, is similar. As was the idea I've been plugging
since before the start of this list.

Or, see R' Aqiva Eiger's explanation. More in terms of halachic principles
-- the chiluq between how to pasqen with an unknown metzi'us (parish)
and how to act when there is an existing pesaq, but it's unknown (qavu'ah)
-- then the RGN-like wrapper I put around it.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On 20/03/17 15:12, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
>
> is there any chance that there will be a psak not to shop at large discount
> [frum] stores whose side effect is putting economic duress upon smaller
> shopping outlets?     in one sense it benefits the tzibbur to have
> cheaper prices, but disadvantages
> store owners who might otherwise be richer...

For whom does an economy exist?  For the general interest, which means 
for the consumers, for the special interest of a few producers?   The 
entire purpose of production and marketing is to benefit the consumer, 
so how can it possibly make sense to deliberately make the consumer pay 
more so as to support producers?  If the producers aren't up to 
supplying the consumer's best interests, then who needs them, and why 
should they remain in business?

Some rabbonim could do with reading _The Wealth of Nations_

Note that "hasogas gevul" in the gemara meant coming into someone else's 
community to set up shop, when one had no reason to go there and could 
easily have chosen instead one of the many communities where there was 
no existing Jewish business to compete with.  It does not apply when the 
new person also lives there, or if he has another reason why he chose 
this community rather than some other one.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 03:39:07PM -0400, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
: And yet, Avraham apparently married K'tura after Sara's death (which took
: place when he was 137), and he fathered six more children...

But it is clear from Sarah's reaction that this was strange even at 99.
Hashem miraculously restored Avraham, perhaps his biological clock was
wound back far enough to account for benei Qerutah too.

I took Sarah's reaction as indicative of the norm, rather than looking to
a post-miracle Avraham.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On 20/03/17 15:42, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> To those who suggest that without a Hechsher for Pesach one cannot know
> that it doesn't contain a mashehu or beliah of chametz -
>
> This seems fairly nonsensical - after all how do we know that the meat
> we eat - with all the very best Hechsherim - is not in fact Tereif?
> After all, there is no Hechsher that checks for every single possible
> blemish that may render the animal Tereifa.
>
> Halacha relies on Rov.


So you're asserting that since a majority of chocolate in the world 
contains neither treif nor chametz, therefore no chocolate ever needs 
any sort of hechsher?

But how do you know a majority of chocolate does not contain any trace 
of chametz?  Did you do a survey?


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

R' Zev Sero wrote:

<<< Provided that it has a hechsher for Pesach.  Without one how do you
know it doesn't contain a mashehu or beliah of chametz? >>>

So what if it does? Is it any worse than milk that one purchased before
Pesach?

On the other hand. ...

R' Meir Rabi wrote: <<<

Lecithin. [used as an emulsifier (just a fancy word meaning it helps all
the ingredients stay together as a very smooth paste - if you make your own
mayonnaise, you add egg yolk as an emulsifier to make a smooth emulsion (a
cream; oil and water do not readily combine) >>>

I'm obviously mistaken,  but what you're describing sounds very much like a
maamid, which would not be batel. Does maamid apply only to gelatin? I
concede that gelatin has a binyan effect that emulsifiers don't,  but by
your own explanation, a mayonnaise without emulsifier sounds quite
unappetizing.

Akiva Miller
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A person has to be sure that the matzos s/he purchases were baked properly.
 The following	from the recently released bio of Rav Gustman illustrates
this.  I am really taken aback by the rabbi who supervised a hand matzah
bakery,  but was not careful about what went on there,	since he ate only
machine matzos.


Note also Rav Gustman's preference that the matzos be baked by the workers in the matzah bakery and not by those  who are "amateurs."


YL


One year, R' Gustman decided to go a hand-matzah bakery that
was run by a prominent Chassidish sect. He was upset by some aspect
of the baking, and on his return he called the Admor of the sect and
said, "What kind of an operation is this that such things are done in
the bakery? You should shut down the bakery!" The Admor himself
went to the bakery. He checked out R' Gustman' s complaint and then
changed the entire process to ensure that everything would be done
as it should be. The Rosh Yeshivah spoke to a prominent Jewish leader
just as he would to an ordinary person, and he would admonish that
leader in a kind way regarding any issue that needed adjustment.

A similar incident occurred in a Yerushalayim matzah bakery.

When the matzah came out of the oven, the Rosh Yeshivah took a
matzah and wrapped it around his hand. He then said, "It's not
baked!" He left the bakery and afterward told one of the rabbanim
in charge of the kashrus in Yerushalayim what had happened. He
said, "I don't understand; if such a thing had happened in Vilna, we
would have closed down the bakery!"
The Rav responded, "That's why I eat only machine matzos."
The Rosh Yeshivah asked him, "What do people do who eat only
hand matzos? You're in charge of kashrus for everybody, not just for
those who eat machine matzos."

From then on, R' Gustman went to bake his matzos on Moshav
Kommemiyus. He pointed out that this was preferable because
women rolled out the dough, and women knew how to roll dough
better than men.

In general, he encouraged the students to go to observe the matzah
baking, because eid echad ne'eman b'isurim (a single witness is to be
believed in matters of forbidding items due to kashrus issues), and
he wanted to rely on the eid echad because he was worried that otherwise
he would never eat any matzos if he himself saw what was
done. But he preferred that the experienced matzah bakers in the
matzah bakery should do the actual work, because they were more
proficient than amateur matzah bakers.
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From: Zev Sero via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


>> ....But avraham was *not*  past fathering children at 99.  He fathered 8 
more 
when he was in his  late 130s/early 140s, and there's no indication that 
this was any kind of  miracle or surprise.<<<<

-- 
Zev  Sero             
z...@sero.name            





>>>>>
 
I have long surmised that Sarah giving birth at 90 was not as big a miracle 
 then as it would be today, considering average life spans then.  It would  
be more like a post-menopausal woman of, say, 60 years old giving birth  
today.  Still old for a pregnancy and still a miracle of course, especially  
considering that she had always been infertile even when she was young.
 
Nowadays it does occasionally happen that a woman of 60 gives birth, but  
only with IVF.  It /is/ a little strange that Sarah said "My husband is  old" 
and not "I am old."
 
One other thing in this connection that is strange is that Avimelech was  
drawn to her beauty and wanted to take her into his harem -- when she was 90  
years old!  Even if she was like a woman of 60  today she must have looked 
much younger and she must have been really  very beautiful. 
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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R' Zev Sero wrote:

<<< But avraham was *not* past fathering children at 99.  He fathered 8
more when he was in his late 130s/early 140s, and there's no indication tat
this was any kind of miracle or surprise. >>>

Are you saying that Sara Imeinu was not surprised by the idea that he would
father a son at 99?

Akiva Miller
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http://www.koshertoday.com/kosher-inde
pendent-stores-concerned-discounter-will-hinder-one-stop-shopping/

is there any chance that there will be a psak not to shop at large discount
[frum] stores whose side effect is putting economic duress upon smaller
shopping outlets?

See here for a hasagat gvul psak!
http://
forward.com/food/365904/kosher-pizza-war-erupts-in-hasidic-brooklyn-and-jew
ish-court-slices-the-pie/?utm_content=buffer61ebf&;utm_medium=social
&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I?d be interested in more halachic technical detail
KT
Joei Rich

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On 20/03/17 19:41, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> <<< Provided that it has a hechsher for Pesach.  Without one how do you
> know it doesn't contain a mashehu or beliah of chametz? >>>
>
> So what if it does? Is it any worse than milk that one purchased before
> Pesach?

1. Milk used to be a single product without additives. The only worry is 
that something got inadvertently mixed in.  If milk has additives, or is 
pasteurised or bottled on equipment that could easily be processing 
chamets as well, then I would think one surely needs a hechsher lepesach.

2. Milk is bittul lach belach, which is not chozer vene'or.   I don't 
know whether one can say the same for chocolate just because it *was* 
lach when the bittul occurred.


> what you're describing sounds very much like a maamid, which would
> notbe batel.

It seems to me that an emulsifier is *obviously* a davar hamaamid, but I 
wonder whether that rule applies to something that's batel in any mixture.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

From what I see, they've been adding Vitamin D to milk in the US for close
to a hundred years. See for example,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319130/ (from the US Govt's
National Institutes of Health)

Akiva Miller
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<<Provided that it has a hechsher for Pesach.  Without one how do you know
it doesn't contain a mashehu or beliah of chametz? But an Ashkenazi
agency can't give it such a hechsher, because that would make it bittul
lechatchila.  So the only practical upshot is that if it has a Sefardi
hechsher for Pesach then Ashkenazim can eat it too.>>

Or in Israel where the hechsher is general and not meant specifically for
Ashkenazim or sefardim

-- 
Eli Turkel
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