Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 32

Wed, 15 Mar 2017

• 1. Re: Anoos (Micha Berger)
• 2. Rav Gustman on Not Becoming a Pulpit Rabbi (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Anoos (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: eilu v'eilu ()
• 7. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Will Purim Be The Only Yom Tov Left Standing After Moshiach Comes? Let's Take a Closer Look (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Rav Gustman (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Yesodei HaTorah, Perek 6 (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: Yesodei HaTorah, Perek 6 (Zev Sero)
• 12. Pesach 2017 from the OU (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Churches, Ronald McDonald, and More (Professor L. Levine)
• 14. Where to Give Tzadakah (Professor L. Levine)
• 15. purim drink (saul newman)

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 05:33:12PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Would you differentiate between the two concepts of anoos rachmana patrei
: and afilu chashav laasot mitzvah vnenas....maaleh alav hakatuv keilu asah?

Seems to be the same thing: one speaking about commission, the other --
about ommission.

A person who does the wrong thing be'oneis is pardoned, and a person who
it prevented from doing the right thing be'oneis is counted as though he
acted -- his omission of actually acting is "pardoned".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

<<On another occasion, a student who excelled in his learning
received semichah from the Rosh Yeshivah. The student thereupon
decided to become a congregational rabbi. R' Gustman advised
him against doing so.>>

I am always suspicious of such stories. The question is was this his shitah
which I would find very strange or was this his opinion for this particular
student. To become a congregational rabbi requires a certain personality.
Rav Gustman may have felt that this particular was more into strict
learning and not fit for the role of congregational rabbi.

An extreme case is that of RYBS. When Rav Soloveitchik first came to the US
he was "chief rabbi" of Boston. He ran into fights which the butchers and
other fights. and made a better better rosh yeshiva than shul rabbi.
However many other shul rabbis have been very successful and today it is
not uncommon to be both a shul rabbi and a rosh yeshiva

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 02:50:50PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:> A person who does the wrong thing be'oneis is pardoned, and a person who
:> it prevented from doing the right thing be'oneis is counted as though he
:> acted -- his omission of actually acting is "pardoned".

: Or it could be he is not scored as being mvatel an aseeh but not
: credited as doing it.

But what R' Asi (Qiddushin 40a) actually says is
    afilu chashav adam la'asos mitzvah
    vene'enas velo asa'ah
    ma'aleh hakasuv ke'ilu as'ah.

There is no "or is could be"...

R' Asi is quoted when discussing the idea of "machashavah tovah metzarfah
lema'aseh." As Rashi ("metzarfah") says, "and he is repaid even for
the thought."

Thus the symmetry I suggested -- oneis for an omission is as though
there was no omission, just as oneis for a commission as as though
there was no sin committed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I thought about that one also. However only Aaron managed to get the 
word "kol" applied to him when describing people's feelings towards him. 
Not even Moshe was able to get the "kol" appellation.

Ben
On 3/13/2017 8:23 AM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> I'm sure they did not.  Consider the mefarshim on "ratzui l'rov 
> echav".  Surely had they recognized the events as extraordinary and 
> miraculous, that "rov" would have been "kol". 

On 3/13/2017 3:09 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
 > I do not know where you get "four mitzvos were created by *three* 
different people".   The mitzvos of Purim were instituted by Torah 
authorities.  I would assume the Sanhedrin, if it was functioning at the 
time.

Nope. Simple pashat in the verses:
Ester 9:19 Therefore do the Jews of the villages, that dwell in the 
unwalled towns, make the fourteenth day of the month Adar a day of 
gladness and feasting, and a good day, and of sending portions one to 
another.

The Jews, the people came up with the party idea. Yes, Mordechai took 
that idea (that the people themselves came up with) and added the following

22 the days wherein the Jews had rest from their enemies, and the month 
which was turned unto them from sorrow to gladness, and from mourning 
into a good day; that they should make them days of feasting and 
gladness, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.

Gifts to the poor was his addition. And of course, Ester said "Write me 
for generations".

 >
 > A party need not be a secular event if it is tied to torah values.  
Is a bris or a Chassana a secular event? They have  some aspects of a 
"party,"  but  if they are conducted according to halacha, they are not 
secular events.

Irrelevant. A brit and a wedding may have a party attached to it but 
one's brit milah and marital status are not affected by the lack of a 
party.  Here the party is the mitzva.

 > To the best of my knowledge everyone sees the creation of the State 
of Israel as an exceptional event, although not all consider it a plus.  
While I am not a spokesman for Satmar,  I do not think that the Satmar 
rebbe considered that the founding of the State of Israel "was only 
politics,  tactics, strategy."  He felt that it was an exceptional event 
that was not a plus.

Exceptional? I said "Divine".  Certainly many people deny any halachic 
significance to the State.

 > Concerning Zionism I strongly recommend reading Zion or Zionism: Rav 
Shimon Schwab

Read it one of the previous times you put it up. Didn't change my mind. 
Thanks though.
 >
 > Is it not true that all assertions are actually based to some extent 
on belief.  How do I know that the world as I see it is the way it is in 
realty?  Is this not belief?

You just proved my point - no one else sees the world the way you do so 
there is no reason to assume that anyone else "believed" what you do 
about the reality of God's involvement.
 >
 > YL

 

From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


>> When Moshe ascended to receive the Torah, it was demonstrated
to him that every matter was subject to forty-nine lenient and
forty-nine stringent approaches. When he queried about this,
God responded that the scholars of each generation were given
the authority to decide among these perspectives in order to
establish the normative halakha. <<


-- 
Micha  Berger            
mi...@aishdas.org         




>>>>>>>>
 
When I read this it reminded me of something.  Here, quoting  wiki:
 
 
"....a  quantum system such as an atom or 
photon can exist as a combination of multiple  states corresponding to 
different possible outcomes. The prevailing theory said  that a quantum system 
remained in this superposition until it interacted with,  or was observed by, 
the  external world, at which time the superposition collapses into one or 
another of the  possible definite states." 
Many valid  possibilities, some mutually exclusive, co-exist 
simultaneously, until  a posek decides on one.  Schrodinger's  Halacha? 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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(Replies to two emails.)

On 3/13/2017 8:23 AM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: I'm sure they did not.  Consider the mefarshim on "ratzui l'rov
: echav".  Surely had they recognized the events as extraordinary
: and miraculous, that "rov" would have been "kol".

Megillah 16b telles us that "echav" means his fellow members of Sanhedrin.
And we're likely talking of Anshei Keneses haGdolah. But in any case, I
think we can assume that among "echav", all saw the Yad Hashem. So
regardless of our origial discussion about how many of the Jews saved
realized the nissim involved, "ratzui lerov echav" has to be understood
as being despite knowing that Mordechai was the vehicle of a neis.

The gemara says this was because his fellow members of Sanhedrin
avoided him because of all the necessary bitul Torah which caused
him to fall behin. He was demoted from the 4th to 5th seat on the
Sanhedrin, and apparently some were wondering why he was still in
it altogether. That mi'ut no longer found him ratzui -- as a TC, no
judgment as a tzadiq. After all, lehalakhah while he was right to save
Kelal Yisrael despiute bitul Torah. (An individual's life is enough
to justify bitul Torah, after all.)

Even when the cost benefit analysis advises action, there is still that
pesky cost.


Chagiga 16b discusses a possibly similar case. Menachem who was supposed
to be av beis din, but he suddenly quit the Sanhedrin, and Shammai was
given the job.

Abayei says he went off the derekh.

Rava said he left to serve the king. The gemara adds he not only went
to servbe the king, but 80 students went with him, and all were dressed
in the levush malkhus.

Rava's version of this story would have the disapproval of Menachem to
parallel that of the mi'ut echav who didn't find Mordechai to be "ratzui".




On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 07:42:01PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: The Jews, the people came up with the party idea. Yes, Mordechai
: took that idea (that the people themselves came up with) and added
: the following
...
: Gifts to the poor was his addition. And of course, Ester said "Write
: me for generations".

She pleaded that to the Sanhedrin. These laws existed not because of
the masses, Mordechai or Esther, but because the Sanhedrin agreed with
the idea and made the appropriate dinim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Fine, but that is a different question (how halachot are enacted). My 
point was about "I do not believe that the Jews at the time of Purim saw 
the miracle as ordinary at all.  It was clear in the end that HaShem 
saved the Jews through the efforts of Esther and Mordechai."

Besides the obvious projection in the statement itself, IMO the fact 
that the people responded with a party and food (and not mass tefilla or 
shira or  some other acts mentioned in Tanach) shows that they saw the 
event in secular terms. Look at Tel Aviv's Adloyada and try and see that 
as an acknowledgment of the miracle.

Ben
On 3/13/2017 11:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
 > She pleaded that to the Sanhedrin. These laws existed not because of
 > the masses, Mordechai or Esther, but because the Sanhedrin agreed with
 > the idea and made the appropriate dinim.

from a close talmid of Rav Gustman

every Talmid of Rav Gustman knows that he gave different advice to each
Talmid, even when advising about Halachic issues...

-- 
Eli Turkel
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     This may seem like a strange question but . . .

The sixth chapter of Yesodei HaTorah in the Mishne Torah, erasing God's 
name, seems like such a minor topic compared to the other issues dealt 
with in that book: Prophecy, God's Unity, Moshe, etc. The sixth chapter 
could easily fit into the halachot dealing with writing a Seifer Torah.

So, what is it doing there? Or am I missing something?

Ben

On 14/03/17 15:35, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
>     This may seem like a strange question but . . .
>
> The sixth chapter of Yesodei HaTorah in the Mishne Torah, erasing God's
> name, seems like such a minor topic compared to the other issues dealt
> with in that book: Prophecy, God's Unity, Moshe, etc. The sixth chapter
> could easily fit into the halachot dealing with writing a Seifer Torah.
>
> So, what is it doing there? Or am I missing something?

He's discussing the three mitzvos dealing with how we must treat the 
Shem:  kiddush haShem, chilul haShem, and ibbud haShem.  They belong 
together.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Please see


https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/kashrus/Daf25-5e.pdf


YL

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Please see the interesting article by Marc Shapiro at

http://seforim.blogspot.com/2017/03/churches-ronald-mcdonald-and-mor
e.html


YL
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The many appeals for donations around the time of Purim and Pesach have got me to thinking about to whom and where one should give tzadakah.


Recently I received an email asking me to donate funds to support a Kollel
in EY that one of the shuls I daven at has "adopted."  I replied, "There is
a very fine kollel in Flatbush that I am sure could use donations.  Why
should I support a Kollel in EY?  Shouldn't I send money to the Kollel in
Flatbush?"


The reply was, "Why can't we support both?"  I replied that I sincerely
doubt that there is enough money to support all of the worthy institutions
in Brooklyn and to also send to institutions in EY.  I suggested that the
person I was emailing call up any yeshiva or Bais Yaakov in Flatbush and
ask if it needed financial support.


Do not local institutions come first in the list of whom to give Tzadakah
to?  And if so,  what is to happen to the many requests for funds from
worthy institutions in EY?


YL
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if one neither drank alcohol  nor slept on purim, what mitzva did they
violate? were they yotzeh the mitzva of eating a seuda on purim?

ie  is there a 5th mitzva of the day to be intoxicated/unconscious[ for
those who hold you are yotze with sleep] ;   or is it inherent in the 4th
mitzva of seuda, and actually a required component of that requirement ;
 or neither
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