Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 11

Mon, 23 Jan 2017

• 1. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Saul Guberman)
• 2. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: OU Shabbos Foodservice Guidelines (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Saul Guberman)
• 5. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: emuna and science (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Land ownership (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: pikuach nefesh? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Land ownership (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Land ownership (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Land ownership (Zev Sero)

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 12:19 PM, saul newman wrote:
> http://forward.com/schmooze/360453/ivanka-trump-and-jared-ku
> shner-get-rabbinic-pass-to-ride-in-car-on-inaugura/?attribut
> ion=home-hero-item-text-1
>
> not so clear guidelines of violating halacha in such situations.  this is
> a ceremonial episode, not a governing situation...

You are basing your assumptions on third and fourth hand information.  Is
being in good graces with all the power brokers, that will allow you to
advocate for the Jewish people, not part of the stadlanus?

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 11:11 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Actually, this case is more about choosing to be in a position where
> safety requires violating derabbnans. Should they instead choose to be
> less involved in her father's presidency if it means lowering the risk
> and number of piquach nefesh situations.


I am not a Posek and could easily be mistaken. But I believe that at
this level of government, I am sure that there are many Heterim that
would apply about a variety if Issurim. I think all Poskim including
Charedi ones would agree with this statement. A leader as powerful as
POTUS requires us to be as accommodating to his demands as possible -
lest it affects the entirety of Klal Yisroel in negative ways.

[Email #2]

I should have said it requires those of us that directly serve him as
Jared and Ivanka will be. Not those of us that are merely citizens of
this country.

HM

On 19/01/17 05:21, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Please see the article that is on page 11 of the most recent Daf
> HaKashrus that I have posted at
>
>
> https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/kashrus/Daf25-3e.pdf
>
> I was not aware of all of the halachic complexities involved in making
> sure that food served on Shabbos is kosher,  and hence I think that this
> article is worth reading.
>
> Are there implications based on this article for each of us to
> investigate before eating at a simcha on Shabbos?  If yes,  what are they?

Most of the issues listed do not affect the kashrus of the food; if 
violated the food may still be eaten.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

What does daas torah have to do with this?  They have a posek. Why must everyone second guess and condescend. 

> On Jan 19, 2017, at 6:40 PM, saul newman <newman...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> in any case ,  i am not sure who if anyone they are using in a daas
> torah sense. sociologically  [as liberal MO's ] speaking, i wouldnt
> expect them to use daas tora in the  haredi sense 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 3:39 PM, saul newman <newman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> how do you separate out  their function as First Son-In-Law [like an inauguration ], from advisor-to-the-president
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You are basing your assumptions on third and fourth hand
>>> information.  Is being in good graces with all the power
>>> brokers, that will allow you to advocate for the Jewish
>>> people, not part of the stadlanus?  
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 12:19 PM, saul newman via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>>> http://forward.com/sc
>>>> hmooze/360453/ivanka-trump-and-jared-kushner-get-rabbinic-
>>>> pass-to-ride-in-car-on-inaugura/?attribution=home-hero-ite
>>>> m-text-1
>>>> 
>>>> not so clear guidelines of violating halacha in such situations.  this is a ceremonial episode, not a governing situation...
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Avodah mailing list
>>>> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
>>>> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
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On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 01:31:15PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> Riding in a car with a non-Jewish chaufeur would be a shevus.
: 
: It's not even 100% clear that it would be a shevus, especially if
: they're not in a car of their own.  The secret service chauffeur
: will be working regardless of whether they're in the car or not.
: Even if they are on their own, that car would probably be driving
: someone else if they were not there.

But he opens the door and thereby turns on the light for you. He is
driving a particular route for you.

....
: The situation here is not so clear because it's not as if Trump will
: disown them if they politely say they have to leave the inauguration
: early....

However, it may impact their effectiveness with the people Mr Trump
will be dealing with.

Like my case with the autocrat... Regardless of what PE Trump may
think, if when visiting Jordan, the royal kitchen makes a mistake
with the chicken they bought from one kosher vender and the chesse
they bought from another... may they eat it and risk offending
King Abdullah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 19/01/17 19:32, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 01:31:15PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> :> Riding in a car with a non-Jewish chaufeur would be a shevus.
> :
> : It's not even 100% clear that it would be a shevus, especially if
> : they're not in a car of their own.  The secret service chauffeur
> : will be working regardless of whether they're in the car or not.
> : Even if they are on their own, that car would probably be driving
> : someone else if they were not there.
>
> But he opens the door and thereby turns on the light for you. He is
> driving a particular route for you.

Why does it matter what route he takes? It's the same melacha no matter 
what the route is, and he'd be opening the door for whoever his 
passenger was.    He's doing it because it's his job, and he's employed 
by the Secret Service, not by you.  You're just literally along for the 
ride.  It's not as if he's driving you around all day to wherever you 
want to go, so you determine how much melacha he does.  It's more like 
riding  bus or train that would be going whether you're on it or not. 
But leravcha demilsa, if I were asked I'd advise inviting one of her 
non-Jewish brothers to come home with them, so that everything can be 
attributed to him, and ner le'echad ner lemei'ah.  Later he can get a 
car home.



> : The situation here is not so clear because it's not as if Trump will
> : disown them if they politely say they have to leave the inauguration
> : early....
>
> However, it may impact their effectiveness with the people Mr Trump
> will be dealing with.

I don't see how.  Those people know that this is the president's 
daughter and son-in-law, and will treat them the same regardless of how 
early they left the inauguration.


> Like my case with the autocrat... Regardless of what PE Trump may
> think, if when visiting Jordan, the royal kitchen makes a mistake
> with the chicken they bought from one kosher vender and the chesse
> they bought from another... may they eat it and risk offending
> King Abdullah?

This is more a shayla for an Israeli ambassador than for them.  Yehuda 
Avner a"h probably asked this shayla at some point in his career.  If 
this was a serious risk then I can easily see room for a heter.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Someone said:

> A purely scientifically minded person will not accept
> something inherently untestable as fact. At most he'll
> say it's a possibility. To be religious requires turning
> a blind eye to scientific method.

Let me know if I'm understanding this right:

We have a "purely scientifically minded person", and for lack of another
name, we'll use the name Pat. Pat's parents claim to love Pat, and so does
Pat's spouse. But those claims are inherently untestable, so Pat will never
accept their word as fact, but only as possibility. I suppose Pat might
even accept those claims as probable. But to accept their claims of love as
*factual* would require Pat to turn a blind eye to scientific method.

Ehhh... I don't think so.

The fallacy lies in the word "untestable", which presumes that there is a
universally accepted threshold for "proof". But there isn't. There are some
probabilities that are so low that some people would consider it
negligible, while others consider anything non-zero to be non-negligible.
(My favorite example: Maybe the world was created at 6 AM this morning. Go
prove that it wasn't. Granted that the odds are negligible, but is that
zero or not?)

Akiva Miller
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If Nimrod was the first king, was there private land ownership before his time. If yes, how was it established halachically (i.e., 7 mitzvot-wise).

KT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:16:09PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: >But he opens the door and thereby turns on the light for you. He is
: >driving a particular route for you.
: 
: Why does it matter what route he takes? It's the same melacha no
: matter what the route is, and he'd be opening the door for whoever
: his passenger was.    He's doing it because it's his job, and he's
: employed by the Secret Service, not by you...
:                        ..., so you determine how much melacha he
: does.  It's more like riding  bus or train that would be going
: whether you're on it or not.

... or he could be the one extra driver and spending the night in the
back room surfing Facebbok. And the "bus or train" would not be going
either way -- as I said, he would otherwise be doing a different act --
even if the same melakhah. Who knows what this person's life would have
been in some hypothetical other world? But I don't think it's relevant.

This isn't lifnei iveir, where the goal is to minimize chilul Shabbos.
Then some would let you say -- well, since he would otherwise drive to
whatever entertainment he would fill his evening with, might as well
have him drive to shul. And some wouldn't. Even that's not a given.

But here we are trying to avoid getting hana'ah for something a non-Jew
did for us. And one may not get hana'ah from the melakhah done by an
employee, eg the employee of a dry cleaner -- if the clothing were dropped
off right before and picked up right after Shabbos so that doing it on
Shabbos was the only way it can be done and not his parsonal choice.
And we don't say that since he was in the shop anyway, if he didn't work
on your suit, he would have done someone else's.

"Doing it for the paycheck, not for me", is not a blanket heter for amirah
le'akum. It's whether or not what he actually did is on my behalf, or not.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On 20/01/17 03:14, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> If Nimrod was the first king, was there private land ownership before
> his time. If yes, how was it established halachically (i.e., 7
> mitzvot-wise).

What has a king got to do with land ownership?  Land is originally 
obtained from hefker, and then sold to other people, and that doesn't 
require a king.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

-----Original Message-----
From: Avodah [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Zev Sero via Avodah
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 8:22 AM
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Land ownership

On 20/01/17 03:14, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> If Nimrod was the first king, was there private land ownership before
> his time. 
===========================
What has a king got to do with land ownership?  Land is originally 
obtained from hefker, and then sold to other people, and that doesn't 
require a king.
===========================
So then how does the king acquire all the land so that those who understand dina dmalchuta as being based on the king owning all the land have a case?
And how did it work from adam harishon down?
KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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On 21/01/17 14:51, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> What has a king got to do with land ownership?  Land is originally
>> obtained from hefker, and then sold to other people, and that doesn't
>> require a king.

> So then how does the king acquire all the land so that those who
> understand dina dmalchuta as being based on the king owning all the
> land have a case? And how did it work from adam harishon down?

a king acquires the land from its rightful owners by the right of 
conquest, and can then give it to others until the next conqueror comes 
along.  apparently this works because "so is the way of kings".    But 
this is not the normal method of how land becomes private property.  The 
normal method is to claim it from hefker by fencing it in and/or putting 
it to use.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


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