Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 142

Sun, 06 Nov 2016

• 1. Does the prohibition of chodosh apply in the diaspora? (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Re: Does the prohibition of chodosh apply in the diaspora? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Swaying During Prayer and Torah Study (H Lampel)
• 5. Re: Faith and Doubt ()
• 6. Re: Faith and Doubt (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (David and Esther Bannett)
• 8. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Micha Berger)
• 9. Questions about Krias Ha Torah (Professor L. Levine)
• 10. V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar? (Professor L. Levine)
• 11. Re: V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar? (Simon Montagu)
• 12. Re: V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar? (Akiva Blum)

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Does the prohibition of chodosh apply in the diaspora?


A. Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De'ah 293:2) writes unambiguously that the laws of
chodosh apply in all circumstances, both in Israel as well as outside of
Israel. Indeed, many Sefardim are known to be careful to not eat chodosh in
accordance with this ruling of Shulchan Aruch. However, there are two main
dissenting opinions among the Ashkenazic poskim.

  *   The Bach (Yoreh De'ah 293) disagrees with Shulchan Aruch and writes
  that the prohibition of chodosh outside of Israel only applies to grain
  grown by Jewish farmers. Grain grown by non-Jewish farmers outside of
  Israel is permitted.

  *   The Magen Avraham (489:17) writes that because of the difficulty in
  observing this law, many rely on the opinion that the prohibition of
  chodosh is limited to Israel and adjacent lands. Though chodosh would
  apply to grain from countries neighboring Israel, it would not apply in
  Europe or America.

The Rama (Yoreh De'ah 293:2) mentions a third consideration. Since it is
uncertain when the planting occurred, one may be lenient and permit eating
these grains, because of a double doubt (sfek sfeika). [This point will be
discussed further in a future Halachah Yomis.]

The Mishnah Berurah (489:45) writes that the majority of people follow the
above leniency, and one should not disapprove of those who follow this
approach. Nonetheless, it is preferable to be stringent.


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On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 01:30:59PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

: Q. Does the prohibition of chodosh apply in the diaspora?

: A. Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De'ah 293:2) writes unambiguously that the
: laws of chodosh apply in all circumstances, both in Israel as well as
: outside of Israel....

AhS YD 293:2 cites a machloqes in the last mishnah in Qiddushin 1.
R' Eliezer says it's assur deOraisa, as the pasuq says "bekhol
moshevoseikhem". The Chakhamim say it only holds in EY after the 14
years of conquest and division -- the pasuq speaking of any yishuv
in EY, thus more restrictive (by 14 years) than mitzvah hateluyah
ba'aretz.

But in Menachos (68a), R Pappa and R' Huna bd"R Yehoshua who ate
chadash on the 16, because they held it was safeiq derabanan
lequlah, but the chakhamim devei R' Ashi hold it's deOraisa.
As each source has the rabbim on opposite sides. And so (se'ifim
5-6) a machloqes rishonim ensues.

: * The Bach (Yoreh De'ah 293) disagrees with Shulchan Aruch and
: writes that the prohibition of chodosh outside of Israel only applies to
: grain grown by Jewish farmers...

Ahs (seif 14) says the Rosh writes in a teshuvah that Jewish and
non-Jewish crops would be identical.

The AhS (se'if 15) wants to be mechadesh that this is tied to the
machloqes of yeish qinyan le'aku"m bEY. Because if there is, then crops
non-Jews grow in in EY would be exempt, and one would have to say lo
kol shekein crops they grow in chu"l.

He therefore disagrees with the Bach.

: * The Magen Avraham (489:17) writes that because of the difficulty
: in observing this law, many rely on the opinion that the prohibition of
: chodosh is limited to Israel and adjacent lands...

: The Rama (Yoreh De'ah 293:2) mentions a third consideration. Since it
: is uncertain when the planting occurred, one may be lenient and permit
: eating these grains, because of a double doubt (sfek sfeika)....

: The Mishnah Berurah (489:45) writes that the majority of people follow
: the above leniency, and one should not disapprove of those who follow
: this approach. Nonetheless, it is preferable to be stringent.

And R' Y Amital said that halakhah really changed in the 20th cent not
so much when it became common to treat the MB as poseiq acharon as when
we decided we were all holy people to whom he was recommended these
"stretch goals".

The AhS's grounds to be meiqil:

Se'if 6: Chadash bechu"l is derabbanan. He picks this side based on the
Or Zarua (summarised in #5) who cites the Terumas haDeshen, the Riva
and numerous others. And in a she'as hadechaq, where the gemara doesn't
take side but just quotes various practices, why not rely on a stam mishnah
et al? Therefore, since there is a safeiq when the wheat was planted,
and without chadash finding bread would be too hard, we can say
safeiq derabbanan lequlah.

Se'if 16: Quotes the Rama's sefeiq sefeiqa. But in 19 he against lists
many of the sources (predominantly/entirely? Ashk) who hold it's derabbanan
and therefore you don't need the 2nd safeiq.

Se'if 18: In Russia, the winters are long. No one would be planting wheat 
before Pesach -- it is an ignorable miqreh rechoqah. According to the USDA
1997 <https://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/nass/planting/uph97.pdf>
wheat planting could start as early as Mar 1 (beginning of the season
in Washington and Oregon). So this heter wouldn't apply in the US. And
the AhS says it wouldn't work in Germany or Poland.

Se'if 20: All gezeiros extending mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz are only
on lands close to EY. C.f. Terumah and ma'aser. Challah is an exception
because the chiyuv is a chiyuv misah and starts when needing, not
farming. Therefore chadash derabbanan wouldn't apply to grains grown
in most of the world.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I just had a look at the Roedelheim Sefas Emes siddur and the Baer 
Avodas Yisroel siddur.  They both have Gashem.

YL 
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On 11/4/2016 9:25 AM,  Micha Berger via Avodah
> Swaying is actually less work than standing still, whereas shukling is an
> action that has the potential to distract.
>
> Or as I noted earlier, to help the davener work himself up.
>
> I think there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
There is another component which may (academically, at least) weigh the 
scales. It is a bein adam l-chaveiro concern (for males). The twisting 
from side to side during Shacharis causes the tsitsis of one's tallis to 
lift up and hit whomever is within their reach. I have been repeatedly 
stung in such circumstances. (The same happens when the davenner next to 
me first wraps himself in his tallis, flinging the tsitsis into my face, 
and at times into my eyes). Sometimes it happens with people to both my 
left and right, so that I feel like I'm going through a car wash. This 
of course, besides causing me pain, interrupts my kavanna, a problem 
during Shemoneh Essray, especially, when I'm lechatchilla helpless to 
move away (or get closer to the culprit so that it bothers him to 
twist). Sometimes I feel justified in moving away, just as I do when 
someone next to me is cracking his knuckles--but that's another knuck to 
crack.

Not that I haven't tried asking the mispallel to be careful, but habits 
are hard to break.

So, to the other guy, one's shuckling or pumping or defiant-looking 
hands-on hips postures or head contortions may be annoying, but the 
twisting or flinging causes real pain.

Zvi Lampel

 
From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> R' Riskin repeated a brilliant  observation by R Moshe Besdin. (H/T
Mosaic Magazine.) I think it says a lot  about what it means to have
a life of faith despite having periods of  doubt.

Quoting from <http://j.mp/2ekffiv> (on  blogs.timesofisrael.com):

...
Noah didn't  enter the ark until the water literally pushed him in.
Rashi's  phrase that "he believed and he didn't believe" is really
another way of describing an agnostic who remains in the state of  his
uncertainty; he believes and doesn't believe. Noah is  therefore
described by Rashi as the first  agnostic.

The second Biblical agnostic appears in the guise  of Haran.....

....   Is it not strange that  the fate of the two agnostics should be so
different? We read  how Noah was a man of little faith, and yet not only
does he  survive the Flood, he turns into one of the central figures of
human history....

In contrast, Haran, father of Lot, brother  to Abraham, hovers on the
edge of obscurity, and is even  punished with death for his lack of
faith. Why is Haran's  agnosticism considered so much worse than Noah's?

Rabbi  Moshe Besdin, zal, explained that while Noah and Haran shared
uncertainty about God, there was a vast difference between them. .......  <<

-- 
Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         






>>>>>
 
The difference between them was that Noach never was an agnostic.   This 
whole clever vort falls apart right from the beginning.  When Rashi  says that 
Noach did and did not believe, he is OBVIOUSLY talking about the Flood  -- 
Noach doubted whether Hashem really would carry through on his threat to  
destroy the world.  Not for a moment did he doubt the existence of the One  
who was talking to him and giving him instructions!  The premise is  absurd.
 
Let's say a kindly father threatens his young child, "If you play with my  
lulav again I am going to potch you!"  The little boy doubts that his  
father will carry through on his threat. "I wonder if Abba really will potch  me? 
 He's always given me so many chances before."  Maybe he takes a  chance 
and plays with Abba's lulav and maybe he's really scared and leaves it  alone. 
  But in any case he does not doubt the existence of his  father!
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------   




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On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 12:35:03PM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
: The difference between them was that Noach never was an agnostic...

And who said Charan was? Who in his era questioned the existence of any
gods at all?

I took it for granted R Besdin was talking about being agnostic WRT
Hashem's intevention.

: whole clever vort falls apart right from the beginning.

I thinkn your problem is with a word, not the thesis.

The parallel holds regardless of the appropiateness word "agnostic". Both
weren't sure the neis would happen until it did. In general, Noach
acted anyway, but the doubt still showed in the last minutes. Charan did
not. Acting despite doubt was sufficient to keep Noach afloat. Charan,
OTOH, was burnt by his inability to ignore his doubts.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

I don't really care whether one says geshem or gashem because they both 
mean the same thing. The advice to pause a moment after saying the 
pausal form gashem and not to pause after geshem makes sense.

What has long bothered me is something else.  Why do the "corrected" 
siddurim who have geshem also have morid hatal with tal in the pausal 
form with a kamatz rather than the non-pausal form, with a patach, as in 
tal umatar?

I once saw or heard an explanation but, as it involved mysticism which 
is not something I go for, I forgot it.  I then posted my question to 
the list and someone sent the mystical story. But, I have forgotten it 
again.

Don't bother to enlighten me because I have no need to forget a third time.

But my question still stands.  Why is one pausal and the other is not 
when the following words are the same.


David
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On Sat, Nov 05, 2016 at 07:39:44PM +0200, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah wrote:
: What has long bothered me is something else.  Why do the "corrected" 
: siddurim who have geshem also have morid hatal with tal in the pausal 
: form with a kamatz rather than the non-pausal form, with a patach, as in 
: tal umatar?
: 
: I once saw or heard an explanation but, as it involved mysticism which 
: is not something I go for...

Morid hatal could be taken as a reference to the tal shel techiyah. See
Chagiga 12b, where R Yehudah quotes Rav that it's stored at the highest
raqia', called Aravos. The dea that this is the tal we're talking about
here is in Yerushalmi Berakhos 5:2 (vilna 38b), part of which is repeated
in Taanis 1:1 (2a).

In which case, "morid hageshem" is asking for rain, and is just part of
the list. Whereas morid hatal has a subtext of being part of "mechayeh
meisim Ata rav lehoshia morid hatal" shel techiyah.

In any case, while it might be mystical, since it's in the Y-mi and
consistent with the Bavli, the idea has impeccable halachic heritage.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

I know that at one time Krias Ha Torah in EY followed a triennial cycle.
This was during the Bayis Sheni.  Some congregations apparently completed
the reading of the Torah in 3 years whereas others took 3 and half years.


In Bavel a yearly cycle was followed as we do today.


Some questions that I would like answers to:


1.  What was the schedule for Krias Hatorah both before and during the first Bais Mikdash?


2.  According to one source I have,  Krias Ha Torah during the time of the
Tannaim followed the yearly cycle,  but changed during the time of the
Amoraim to a triennial cycle.	Is this true and why did this change take
place?


3. When Jews returned to EY in numbers they opted for the yearly cycle.  Why didn't the return to the triennial cycle?


YL
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A friend of mine who resides in Brooklyn was in EY last week for 3 days to attend the Pidyon Ha Ben of a great grandson.


In EY they are already saying V'san Tal U'Matar.  He, of course, was saying V'San Bracha.


He told me on Shabbos that he was not sure whether to say  V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar while in EY.


Anyone have any insight into this issue?


YL
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On 6 ???? 2016 14:15, "Professor L. Levine via Avodah" <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> A friend of mine who resides in Brooklyn was in EY last week for 3 days
to attend the Pidyon Ha Ben of a great grandson.
>
>
> In EY they are already saying V'san Tal U'Matar.  He, of course, was
saying V'San Bracha.
>
>
> He told me on Shabbos that he was not sure whether to say  V'San Bracha
or V'san Tal U'Matar while in EY.
>
>
> Anyone have any insight into this issue?

I looked into a number of Aharonim when I was in Morocco this time two
years ago. I don't remember any citations, but the conclusion I reached was
that you can say whichever you choose and there will be a posek on whom you
can rely.
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On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Professor L. Levine wrote:
...
> In EY they are already saying V'san Tal U'Matar.  He, of course, was
> saying V'San Bracha.
...

In the EY that I live in, we start saying vsein tal on 7th Marchesvan.
That's this coming Monday night.

Akiva


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