Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 135

Mon, 31 Oct 2016

• 1. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion for the next few weeks (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: CARRYING ON YOM TOV: IS IT ALWAYS PERMITTED? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Simon Montagu)
• 5. Re: tefillin on chol hamoed (Akiva Miller)
• 6. R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Simon Montagu)
• 8. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly / What about Beth David cemetery? (Ben Rothke)
• 9. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion for the next few weeks (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Original Sin (Professor L. Levine)

On 30/10/16 07:25, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> first not everyone agrees with the psak of R Karelitz. Among the reasons
> are precisely that perhaps tumah does not really go on "forever". In
> addition to questions about the moon how about accounting for the
> curvature of the earth?

What about it?  How is it relevant?   at any given point in the 
universe, you are either above a grave or you are not.


> As we have have pointed out in the past numerous poskim state that
> :ma-shehu" on Pesach should not be taken literally, i.e. a nano particle
> of chametz is not prohinted. Similarly tumah rises as far as a person
> can see with a naked eye. One woulkd need to check how high the plane is
> over the Holon cemetery

(a) Planes can be seen with the naked eye even at cruising altitude, if 
the weather permits.  (b) Even if that were not so, surely it's beyond 
all question that planes taking off from NTBG and flying over Holon can 
be easily and clearly seen from the ground.  It's only ten km from 
takeoff, after all.

-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more

On 30/10/16 16:23, via Avodah wrote:
> Don't Lubavitcher kohanim go to the cemetery wearing some kind of a
> box?  Why wouldn't being in an enclosed airplane be the same thing?  Not
> answering the question, just asking it.

Tum'ah does not go sideways, just up and down.  Kohanim are not allowed 
within four amos of an unfenced grave, lest they step over it, but if 
there's a fence between them and the grave they can go right up to it. 
Thus a kohen may walk in a cemetery if he is carrying a fence around 
himself that separates him from the graves he passes between.  He may 
also walk inside a human fence, consisting of people surrounding him and 
walking with him in the middle. That's what they used to do before they 
came up with the boxes.  (Now there's a fenced path to the Ohel, so such 
methods are no longer needed.)

(a human fence also works on Shabbos, so long as the people don't know 
they're being assembled for that purpose.  Once they're all in position 
they can be informed that they are now a fence creating a reshus 
hayochid in the middle, and could they please all walk in lockstep so 
the person in the middle can carry.)



-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more

On 30/10/16 15:41, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I don't want any of the things in my house to get stolen, and that's why I
> lock the house when I go to shul. There is a machlokes on whether or not
> this justifies carrying the key on Yom Tov, and the MB says that if I can
> secure those things in some other way, then "all opinions" forbid me to
> carry the key.

No, there is no such machlokes.  All opinions *permit* you to carry your 
house key, because you are not carrying it to prevent theft, you are 
carrying it to get back in to your house!   You are confusing two very 
different things: why you locked the house and why you are carrying the 
key.  It doesn't matter why you lock your house; the fact is that you 
did lock it, and therefore the key will serve the purpose of letting you 
back in.

The only machlokes is about the safe key, for which you have no use at 
all on yomtov.  You carry it with you for peace of mind; the MB says 
perhaps that itself is a valid yomtov use, but if you can get that peace 
of mind in some other way then there is no heter to carry the key.

But when the key itself has a use there is no sevara to forbid carrying 
it, and no opinion that forbids it, even if you could achieve the same 
purpose without the key.  How you choose to get in is your business, and 
you don't need a reason at all, let alone a good one.

As I wrote the first time, the position being proposed would imply that 
you may not carry a siddur to shul if there is a shul in your building 
where you could daven without carrying, or if there are siddurim at shul 
that you could use.   It would also imply that even if the key is your 
only way to get back home, you may not carry it if you have no reason to 
go out in the first place.  Both of these are absurd results.  You may 
go out on yomtov, even for absolutely no reason at all, and you may 
still carry a key; you may go to any shul you choose, even if you have 
absolutely no reason to prefer it to another once, and you may carry 
anything you anticipate that you might want there.  You are only 
forbidden to carry things you are certain not to have any use at all for 
-- and even those the MB is willing to permit if not having them will 
disturb your yomtov.




>> Why don't you leave it at home, both on shabbos and yomtov, and let
>> those people let you in?   Obviously you have a reason, and thus a
>> use for the key.  Therefore there is not even a hava amina that you
>> should not carry it on yomtov.
>
> There might have been more reasons, but I can only think of two now: They
> might not hear me knocking, and even if they do hear me knocking, I don't
> want to trouble them to come unlock the door.

If that's enough of a need in your mind that it causes you to take the 
key, then by definition it's enough of a need to justify carrying it on 
yomtov, *even if* my argument above were not valid.  There is no such 
thing as "not enough of a need"; *any* need is enough.  But my main 
argument is that it wouldn't make a difference if you had *no* reason 
for taking the key, if it were a mere whim; it would still be permitted, 
because lepo'el you have a use for it, unlike the safe key for which you 
have no use.




-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more

> Don't Lubavitcher kohanim go to the cemetery wearing some kind of a box?
Why wouldn't being in an enclosed airplane be the same thing?  Not
answering the question, just asking it.
>
> --Toby Katz


There  were pictures on social media a year or two ago of kohanim sitting
in a plane on the flight path to or from TLV wearing a sort of large
cardboard carton. It eludes me how if this solves the problem the carpet on
the floor and ulphostery on the seat of the plane do not.
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R' Eli Turkel quoted from somewhere:

> When it comes to EY,  the claim is that it is minhag Eretz Yisroel not
> to put on Tefillen during Chol Moed.  However,  according to Rabbi
> Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, Z'L, Rabbi Binyamin Hamburger, and I am sure
> others, there is no such thing as minhag EY. EY is a melting pot with
> congregations having many different minhagim.
>
> Thus, to assert that one should not put on Tefillen, because one lives
> in EY seems to me to be unjustified.  Indeed,  I am told that there
> are people who live in Eretz Yisroel who put on Tefillen privately.
> Furthermore, there are some minyanim in EY at which Tefillen are worn
> publicly on Chol Moed. Ehrlau'er is one.

My ONLY problem with the above is in the use of the word "thus". The author
claims to have brought some evidence, and introduces his conclusion with
the word "thus".

But in my opinion, the author has not proven his point, because he does not
explain what he mean by the word "minhag". On the one hand, he seems to say
that it's not possible for there to be a unified "minhag EY", but his only
evidence is the existence of other other congregations, each having their
own minhag.

For his argument to make sense, in my opinion, the author would have to
explain the development of the minhag as followed in Rabbi Scheinberg's
congregation, and the minhag as followed in Rabbi Hamburger's congergation,
and then explain why that does not apply to EY in general.

In other words, if they concede the validity of a Minhag Frankfurt, or a
Minhag Lita, or a Minhag Bagdad, or whatever, surely they did not appear
out of the blue, fully established, decreed by the sages of those places.
Rather, they developed over time, based on the practices of the people and
rabbis who lived in certain areas. Some of those practices were accepted
and became part of the local minhag, and some were rejected, and I would
like to believe that Rabbis Scheinberg and Hamburger have a shita that
explains those rules.

The fact that there are individuals who follow their own practices at home,
and/or shuls which follow their own practices that differ from the other
shuls in the area, does NOT disprove the existence of a local minhag. The
fact that individuals or shuls that follow their own practice in private
might actually *support* the local public minhag - or maybe they are wrong
for going against the local minhag.

RET wrote:

> The vast majority of religious people in EY with almost all poskim
> require everyone in EY to follow the minhagim of EY. R Hamburger has
> been fighting this position for years claiming that the ancient
> ashkenazi (German) minhagim are the most accurate and therefore they
> should not change.

And, as I have asked many times, what is the starting point for the
definition of "ancient", and why does being ancient mean that it should not
change? Just as one example, choose any piyut you like. Once a time it had
not yet been written, so I ask, why was the minhag changed to include it?
People say that deleting this piyut is an unjustified change to the
established minhag, but I wonder if *introducing* the piyut is an
unjustified change to the established minhag. There must be rules to answer
this, and if those rules could be determined, these questions would go away.

Akiva Miller
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> As someone who lives in Israel, that is not a realistic alternative
> to fly from Haifa to Cyprus.

The dayanim who suggested it also live in Israel, and they seem to think
otherwise.


> We've searched more than 400 airlines that we sell, and couldn't
> findany flights from Haifa (HFA) to Larnaca (LCA) on Tue, Nov 1

Could they have meant to go to Cyprus by sea, and then fly from there? >>

I severely doubt the dayanim looked at flight schedules.  Sorry to say I
have not always found some poskim knowledgeable of reality.  I still recall the
cohen who wrapped himself in plastic. As far as I know that was never
repeated . Then there was the posek who recommended lighting
chanukah candles on a plane for a short time not withstanding the risks
involved and that it is against all regulations.


OTOH I looked at UP (ElAl cheap flights) and there do indeed seem to be
flights every day. Other airlines also seem to have daily flights for about
$100 each way. Obviously flying through Cyprus would add both time and cost
to the trip.

Again other poskim are more mekil on various grounds including the
materials that modern planes are made of



-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> On 31/10/16 05:05, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
>
> There  were pictures on social media a year or two ago of kohanim
>> sitting in a plane on the flight path to or from TLV wearing a sort of
>> large cardboard carton. It eludes me how if this solves the problem the
>> carpet on the floor and ulphostery on the seat of the plane do not.
>>
>
> I've seen pictures of a plastic bag, not a cardboard box.  A sealed keli
> (tzomid posil) blocks tum'ah.  The plane is not (according to most poskim);
> the bag is.


There's something here I'm not getting, but I'm not going to say any more
until I've seen some teshuvot inside. Any references are welcome.
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As to cohanim on planes, in the shiur: Kohanim Flying in Plastic Bags by R'
Aryeh Lebowitz -
http://www.yutorah.o
rg/lectures/lecture.cfm/792566/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-koha
nim-flying-in-plastic-bags/
- he quotes Rav Schachter as saying that flying in a plane over a cemetery
does not constitute hakravah for a cohen.

Also, anyone who spends more than 5 minutes at Beth David cemetery in Long
Island will see (and hear) planes landing. With that, wouldn't that be a
issue also for cohanim coming into JFK?
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On 31/10/16 05:05, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:

> There  were pictures on social media a year or two ago of kohanim
> sitting in a plane on the flight path to or from TLV wearing a sort of
> large cardboard carton. It eludes me how if this solves the problem the
> carpet on the floor and ulphostery on the seat of the plane do not.

I've seen pictures of a plastic bag, not a cardboard box.  A sealed keli 
(tzomid posil) blocks tum'ah.  The plane is not (according to most 
poskim); the bag is.


-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more

R' Marty Bluke suggested:

> Maybe Kohanim should have to check teh flight path and ensure that they
> aren't going to be flying over a cemetery. There are quite a number of
> Jewish cemetaries in Europe.

I see many practical problems with this idea.

First, I don't know how to obtain such a map. All of the "flight path" maps
that I've seen merely show the start and end points, with a pretty line
connecting them and has no relation to the actual path flown. And even if
it would be accurate, it is not sufficiently detailed to tell whether
you're going directly over the cemetery, or perhaps a mile to the side of
it.

Second, even if such flight path maps exist, I doubt that government
security agencies would allow the public to access them.

Third, even if you got such maps, you might know where the largest 10% of
Jewish cemeteries are, but not the smallest 90%.

And even if one could solve all the above, remember that airline routes are
not like trains and buses. Once you've left the immediate vicinity of the
airport, the traffic controllers can put you on any of several specific
lanes, several miles apart, rendering all your research worthless for this
issue.

If anyone has a greater knowledge of current aviation practices, and can
correct me on this, please do so.

Akiva Miller
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The following is from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 3.19


By the sweat of your countenance shall you eat bread, until you return to the ground, for from it you
were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.


Great importance is attached to the following further observation:
The Divine judgment directs a curse at the earth and at the serpent, but
this judgment contains not a hint of a curse against man. Man is not
cursed in any way. Nothing was changed in man's lofty calling or in his
ability to fulfill it. Only the external conditions, only the stage on which

he is to fulfill his mission, have been changed - and even this happened
only for his own good. The mission itself, his Divine calling and his
ability to fulfill it, have not changed one iota. To this day, every newborn
infant emerges from God's hand in purity, as did Adam in his time;
every child comes into the world as pure as an angel, to live and become
a man. This is one of the cardinal points in the Torah of Israel and in
Jewish life.

But what a miserable and hopeless picture of man is drawn by those
who err and deny his purity. On the basis of the story of Gan Adin, they
have concocted a lie that undermines the moral future of mankind. We
are referring to the dogma of "original sin," on the basis of which they
have built a spiritual structure against which the Jew must protest with
every fiber of his being.

It is true that, on account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, all of
Adam's descendants inherited the task of living in a world that no longer
smiles at them as it once did, but this is so only because this same sin
is still being committed over and over again. However, the express purpose
of the present conflict between man and earth and of man's resultant
"training by renunciation" is to guide man toward moral perfection,
which will pave the way for his return to Paradise.

But to say that because of "original sin" sinfulness is innate in man,
that man has lost the ability to be good and is now compelled to sin -
these are notions against which Judaism raises its most vigorous protest.


Man as an individual and mankind as a whole can, at any time,
return to God and to Paradise on earth. Toward this end, man needs
no medium other than devotion to duty, which is within the capacity
of every human being. Toward this end, there is no need for an intermediary
who has died and then been resurrected. This is attested to by
all of Jewish history, from which we learn that, in subsequent generations
God drew as near to men of purity as He did to Adom Ha Rishon before
the sin. Avraham, Moshe, Yeshayahu, Yirmeyahu, and others like them
attained God's nearness simply by their faithfulness to duty. The first
principle of Judaism - the one, free God - goes hand in hand with
the second principle, namely, the pure and free man.

The dogma of original sin is a most regrettable error of an alien
faith. They think that, in consequence of this sin, sinfulness is innate
in man, and that man can be saved from the curse of sin, only by virtue
of the belief in a certain fact. In the story of Gan Adin, however, there is

no mention of a curse against man. To this day, every Jew avows before
God: "The soul that you have given me is pure,"
and it is up to me alone to keep it pure and to return it to You in its
original state of purity. As our Sages teach us: There is no age in which people like
Avraham, Ya'akov, Moshe, and Shemuel do not live" (Bereshis Rabbah
56:7). In every age, in every generation, man is capable of ascending to
the highest levels of morality and spirituality.


Let us also note: The earth was cursed for man's sake; and as man's
degeneration increased, so did the curse upon the earth. The earth as
it is today is not the same as it was in the past or as it will be in the
future. Accordingly, any analogy between the earth's present condition
and its condition at the time of its creation is unfounded and is based
on a false premise.


<Snip>


To refine and elevate earthly life, and bring life near to God and to
His Presence - that is the essence of God's Torah and the essence of the
Divine rule.

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