Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 125

Thu, 06 Oct 2016

• 1. Re: N'kom L'aynaynu (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Re: Purim and Maavirin es Roa haGezeirah (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: Purim and Maavirin es Roa haGezeirah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: N'kom L'aynaynu (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Micha Berger)
• 8. wanting vengeance (Simi Peters)
• 9. Re: N'kom L'aynaynu (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Purim and Maavirin es Roa haGezeirah (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: Purim and Maavirin es Roa haGezeirah (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Micha Berger)
• 13. The Parameters of Pas Paltur (Professor L. Levine)

On 10/6/2016 1:08 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> You shifted from Divine Vengence to what we are commanded to do.
>
> C.f. "Hashem yi[n]qom damo".

I'm not convinced that this is a legitimate distinction.  Hashem refers 
to our attack on the Midianites as nikmat bnei Yisrael. Moshe refers to 
it as nikmat Hashem.  I think there are times when we are the vehicle of 
Hashem's vengeance.

Lisa

I'm not sure why nobody? has mentioned the significance of the Torah
Shebiksav Posuk in Ekev

'Ki Lo al HALECHEM levado Yichyeh Ho'odom'

I would have thought that this is significant?

On 10/6/2016 12:38 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> A thought struck me about the difference between Achashveirosh's
> insistance that anything written besheim hamelekh, and sealed betaba'as
> hamelekh, ein hashiv OT1H, and uteshuvah, utefillah, utzedaqah ma'avirin
> es roa' hagezeira, on the other.
>
> Especially given the idea that any reference to hamelekh (or perhaps only
> hamelekh without "Achashveirosh") refers on a second level to haMelekh.
>
> But then I realized that "ma'avirin es roa' hegezeirah" doesn't promise
> a repeal of the gezeirah. Rather, the gezeirah comes to pass, but one
> passes through (avoids? is sheileded from?) the tragic aspect of it.
Except that the haavara is of the roa hagezeira.  It is the evil of the 
decree that is caused to pass; not us.  And in terms of Purim, while the 
gezera was not prevented, its roa certainly was, by the second gezera, 
the one permitting us to fight back.

Lisa

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On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 05:29:01PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: >But then I realized that "ma'avirin es roa' hegezeirah" doesn't promise
: >a repeal of the gezeirah. Rather, the gezeirah comes to pass, but one
: >passes through (avoids? is sheileded from?) the tragic aspect of it.

: Except that the haavara is of the roa hagezeira.  It is the evil of
: the decree that is caused to pass; not us.  And in terms of Purim,
: while the gezera was not prevented, its roa certainly was, by the
: second gezera, the one permitting us to fight back.

The "And in terms..." was exactly my point. I thought the difference
between what Acheshveirosh's words are being used to say about the Melekh
(in Chazal's subtext to Esther) and what we're saying on Yamim Noraim
is whether the gezeira could change. The megillah says "... venechtam
betabaas ha[M]elekh ein lehashiv", whereas we are saying "maavirin."

"But then I realized" that it's more about the outcome of the
gezeira. Thus explaining the notion of chasimah. It also explains the
value of mid-year teshuvah even despite the chasimah. The gezeirah neednt
be overturned in order to have an entirely new outcome.

So I think we're in agreement, I just wasn't clear enough about where
the hava amina ended and the masqana began.


But I don't understand your diqduq point. The "es" means that "roa
hagezeirah" is the object of the statement. So one passes through the
tragedy of the decree. What was my mistake?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 05:23:16PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: I know it goes against modern cultural mores, but being able to see
: God take vengeance on one's enemies can be a great comfort.  I know
: that we're supposed to say "I want justice; not vengeance", but the
: Torah is pretty clear that wanting vengeance is natural, and not to
: be condemned...

What about the Rambam, Dei'os 7:7, that I cited WRT whether neqimah
is only a problem WRT ".... es benei amekha"?
    Ra'ui lo le'adam liyhos ma'vir al midosav
    al kol divrei ha'olam.
    Shehakol eitzel hamevinim divrei hevel vehavai.
    Ve'einan kedai linqom aleihem.

It does appear that a wise person doesn't think anything is worth
neqamah.

At 10:35 am EDT Lisa replied to me:
>> You shifted from Divine Vengence to what we are commanded to do.

>> C.f. "Hashem yi[n]qom damo".

> I'm not convinced that this is a legitimate distinction.  Hashem refers
> to our attack on the Midianites as nikmat bnei Yisrael. Moshe refers to
> it as nikmat Hashem.  I think there are times when we are the vehicle of
> Hashem's vengeance.

Sure, when the victory is part of the nissim giluyim of Yetzi'as Mitzrayim,
each can point to the others' role in the victory.

Still, the attitude expressed by Hil' Dei'os appears to me to be the
ideal we should be striving for. I think there is no motivation for
the argument you're making.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On 10/6/2016 12:07 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> In any case, beli'ah could never be guaranteed to be zero. Knowing for sure
> not even one cell remains from the meat that was last in the pot??? So yeah,
> we really are talking about getting the beli'ah down to ignorable levels,
> even in lekhat-chilah cases.

We don't care about a cell.  We don't care about anything that cannot be 
perceived with unaided human senses.  I've had pots come out of the 
dishwasher that still have an odor of what was cooked in them.  That's 
perceptable.  I've never experienced that with glass (real glass) or 
stainless steel.  For that matter, I've never experienced it with 
flexible silicon, either.  But I have with other metals, with Pyrex, 
with china, and with tupperware type plastics.

Lisa

On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 05:26:45PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 10/6/2016 12:07 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >In any case, beli'ah could never be guaranteed to be zero. Knowing for sure
: >not even one cell remains from the meat that was last in the pot??? So yeah,
: >we really are talking about getting the beli'ah down to ignorable levels,
: >even in lekhat-chilah cases.
: 
: We don't care about a cell.  We don't care about anything that
: cannot be perceived with unaided human senses....

Yes, which was why I used a cell to illustrate what I mean by obiously
ignorable levels.

Since the pot isn't stained be'ein, beli'ah is also imperceptible by
human senses, though. Can't be seen, smelled, tasted nor felt. (Nor
heard nor detectible by proprioception, for that matter.)

To my mind, the whole issue of beli'ah vs bitul is about the definition
of ignorable. Where indvidual cells and other obviously imperceptibles
don't exist, but other things I would have considered imprerceptible
is.

And not only do we count beli'ah, we worry it might be nearly the same
volume as the keli itself!

It was for this reason that in prior iterations I floated the idea that
nosein ta'am had more to do with intangible ta'am -- c.f. ta'am hamitzvah
-- than literal tongue sensation of molecules. Although, if the kefeilah
can taste the food, of course there is cognitive taam as well.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

See Hizkuni on Viyikra 19:18, first dibbur hamat'hil.  He seems to be saying
that revenge as such is not intrinsically problematic; the problem is that
it consumes the person.  Perhaps he is also implying that it sets up a
vicious circle, but that might just be me expanding on his idea.  (The rest
of the piece is kind of interesting too, but only the first d"h is relevant
to the discussion of vengeance.)  The Hizkuni can be found in the Mossad
HaRav Kook Torat Haim edition of Humash.

 

Kol tuv,

Simi Peters



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On 10/6/2016 6:45 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 05:23:16PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : I know it goes against modern cultural mores, but being able to see
> : God take vengeance on one's enemies can be a great comfort.  I know
> : that we're supposed to say "I want justice; not vengeance", but the
> : Torah is pretty clear that wanting vengeance is natural, and not to
> : be condemned...
>
> What about the Rambam, Dei'os 7:7, that I cited WRT whether neqimah
> is only a problem WRT ".... es benei amekha"?
>      Ra'ui lo le'adam liyhos ma'vir al midosav
>      al kol divrei ha'olam.
>      Shehakol eitzel hamevinim divrei hevel vehavai.
>      Ve'einan kedai linqom aleihem.
>
> It does appear that a wise person doesn't think anything is worth
> neqamah.
WADR, I don't see how that Rambam is relevant at all to n'kom 
l'eineinu.  Rambam raui lo *l'adam*.  That it's good midot for an 
individual to let things go.  Though note also that he doesn't say it's 
assur not to.  But we're talking about the tzibbur.  And when our 
tzibbur is oppressed, that calls for vengeance.  Public vengeance.  
Because it's a chillul Hashem for His people to be oppressed, so it 
requires a public vengeance to repair it.

Lisa


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 Except that the haavara is of the roa hagezeira.  It is the evil of the decree that is caused to pass; not us.  

Rabbi Nosson Rich in a shiur found here

http://www.yutorah.org/lect
ures/lecture.cfm/862406/rabbi-nosson-rich/mishna-berura-yomi-hilchos-rosh-h
ashana-584-2/
Rabbi Nosson Rich-Mishna Berura Yomi: Hilchos Rosh Hashana 584-2

explains that the term roa modifies the term haGzeira and that what we are
asking is that the bad part of the decree be annulled and the positive
parts of the decree remain in place

Gct
Joel Rich
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On 10/6/2016 6:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> But I don't understand your diqduq point. The "es" means that "roa
> hagezeirah" is the object of the statement. So one passes through the
> tragedy of the decree. What was my mistake?

When you use the word "pass", and we're using the Hebrew "maavir", it 
seems as if you're connecting the two.  That's incorrect.  It's the roa 
that's being caused to pass.  Not us.

Lisa

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On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 05:26:45PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 10/6/2016 12:07 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >In any case, beli'ah could never be guaranteed to be zero. Knowing for sure
: >not even one cell remains from the meat that was last in the pot??? So yeah,
: >we really are talking about getting the beli'ah down to ignorable levels,
: >even in lekhat-chilah cases.
: 
: We don't care about a cell.  We don't care about anything that
: cannot be perceived with unaided human senses....

Yes, which was why I used a cell to illustrate what I mean by obiously
ignorable levels.

Since the pot isn't stained be'ein, beli'ah is also imperceptible by
human senses, though. Can't be seen, smelled, tasted nor felt. (Nor
heard nor detectible by proprioception, for that matter.)

To my mind, the whole issue of beli'ah vs bitul is about the definition
of ignorable. Where indvidual cells and other obviously imperceptibles
don't exist, but other things I would have considered imprerceptible
is.

And not only do we count beli'ah, we worry it might be nearly the same
volume as the keli itself!

It was for this reason that in prior iterations I floated the idea that
nosein ta'am had more to do with intangible ta'am -- c.f. ta'am hamitzvah
-- than literal tongue sensation of molecules. Although, if the kefeilah
can taste the food, of course there is cognitive taam as well.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

________________________________
From: Insights Into Halacha <ysp...@ohr.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 2:18 PM
To: Professor L. Levine
Subject: The Parameters of Pas Paltur




We know that Pas Paltur, Baker's Bread is permitted year round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all one's bread products

We know that Pas Paltur, Baker's Bread is permitted year round. Yet, During
the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all one's bread products
are strictly Pas Yisroel. But which items fit this category? Pasta?
Doughnuts? Noodles? And what about cereal? Can I give my kids Cheerios this
week?

To find out, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: The Parameters
of Pas Paltur<http://sable.madmimi.com/c/10500?id=62959.437.1.63ea74d7fc24f0
b8e320b9c05cd34f17>" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just
ask.











<https://madmimi.com/?>



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