Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 122

Fri, 30 Sep 2016

• 1. yerusha (saul newman)
• 2. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi ()
• 3. Re: whole wheat challah ()
• 4. hakatuv hashlishi yachria beinehem (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Geonim, Rambam and Other Rishonim on Mesorah and, Pesak and RMH's essay (H Lampel)
• 6. Sleeping on Rosh Hashana (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. The Rosh Hashana 'Dug' Dilemma (Professor L. Levine)
• 8. Re: Sleeping on Rosh Hashana (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Re: Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi (Marty Bluke)
• 11. Birchas Leishev - Kevius, Eating (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 12. Re: whole wheat challah (Micha Berger)

http://www.kikar.co.il/210997.html

does going in anyway off the derech afffect  yerusha  if the deceased
didn't cut that child off  ie can an apotropos decide on his own?
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In a message dated 9/23/2016:


From: Isaac Balbin 
 
 

>>Indeed,
it is ironic that when the Gezera was first made  it was not accepted
because of the importance of bread to their diet. The  irony is that they
tell you to stay away from carbs like bread if you want  to lose weight. I
guess though that supports the notion. Granted meat was  in short supply
and expensive at times, but potatoes and the like would  have been there.<<
>>>
 
Potatoes would have been /where/?  Potatoes are a New World food and  would 
not have been anywhere in the Old World prior to the 16th century.
 
 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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> R' Eli Turkel asked
>> > I note in my shul that it  is becoming more common to see light blue 
or even
>> > striped  shirts on shabbat. Again how much of this dress wear is time
>> >  dependent?"




>>>>
 
What a strange disconnect we sometimes find between the subject line  and 
the actual subject.  "Whole wheat challah"?  "Blue shirts on  Shabbos?"  A 
strange thread, speaking of blue threads.  Mah inyan  shmittah etc?  
 
I understand that wearing blue shirts on Shabbos is a sign of kalus  rosh 
and impiety, but whole wheat challah?!  Do different varieties of  bread 
signify different points on the frum spectrum? she asked  with a rye smile.
 


--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Is anyone aware of any lomdus or academic research on whey the concept of
hakatuv hashlishi yachria beinehem is found in midrash halacha (e.g.,
Yalkut shimoni) but not (to my knowledge) in the Talmud Bavli?
KVCT
Joel Rich

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I retract this paragraph.

Zvi Lampel

> I actually think your version creates a starker contrast between the
> Accumulative and Constitutional views than mine does. You have the
> "Accumulative" view asserting that Hashem explicitly stated neither
> halachic position vs. the "Constitutive"view that Hashem actually gave
> both contradictory halachic rulings. (I'm assuming you are using the
> word "position" here to refer to the pesak, just as you did in your
> description of the "Accumulative" view.) I have Hashem giving incomplete
> halachic positions vs Hashem providing the halachic factors to consider
> in reaching a decision. I think I'm being fairer and kinder to the
> author by not extending the idea of Hashem giving multiple "panim"
> (considerations to look for in situations they would face, by which
> to size it up, and arrive at the correct pesak based upon the correct
> weighing of those factors) to the less subtle, more radical idea that
> He actually told Moshe contradicting conclusions (between which Chazal
> would decide based upon...what??, being that there is no criterion to
> meet?). RMH put it that the Ramban, Ran, and Ritva held that Hashem
> left the issues "open-ended," by revealing to him the arguments of the
> future sages, which Moshe proceeded to transmit to the sages for them
> to decide the pesak. He did not actually write that the Ramban or Ran,
> or even Ritva, held that Hashem actually gave contradicting pesakim.

The following is from today's Daf HaYomi B'Halacha

http://www.dafhalacha.com/daily-emails-2/


The Rama cites a custom not to sleep during the day of Rosh Hashana. This
is based on a statement of Chazal that if someone sleeps on Rosh Hashana,
his mazal will sleep. According to the Arizal, the problem is limited to
the morning hours before chatzos. There is a machlokes as to whether this
custom mandates arising before dawn on Rosh Hashana morning. Some
contemporary poskim write that even if the minhag does not require people
to rise early, someone who woke up early should not go back to sleep.
Someone whose head feels heavy or who won't be able to daven properly
without a nap can rest as needed on Rosh Hashana. Some poskim say that the
minhag differentiates between sleeping in a bed and in a chair -- and only
resting in a bed could be a problem.

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As we sit down on Rosh Hashana night, to partake of our Simanim, as
symbolic omens to enable a "Sweet New Year", we might want to give a
thought or two to the fact that one of the most widespread of the Simanim,
fish, which can be used for two separate Simanim, is cited by many
authorities as an item not to be eaten on Rosh Hashana...

To find out why and if it still applies, read the full article "Insights
Into Halacha: The Rosh Hashana 'Dug' Dilemma<http://sable.madmimi.com/c/10500?id=60592.428.1.a53db5f36fda0c
726e597909df31a088>"

From this article


There is a well-known halacha that one is not allowed to fast on Rosh
Hashana barring certain specific circumstances. Although it is a Day of
Judgment, and there are shittos of the Gaonim that do permit one to fast,
nevertheless the halacha is that Rosh Hashana is also a festive Yom Tov and
we must honor it properly. In fact, the Yerushalmi mentions that we must
eat, drink, and be mesamayach on Rosh Hashana[1]<http://ohr.edu/7040#_edn1>. This
includes partaking of fine delicacies, as it is written in the Book of
Nechemia[2]<http://ohr.edu/7040#_edn2>
regarding Rosh Hashana, that everyone should "Eat fatty foods and drink
sweet drinks...for this day is holy".


Interestingly, and although it is considered to be of the most
distinguished of foods, and therefore seemingly quite appropriate with
which to honor the holiday, nevertheless, there are various customs related
to the permissibility of partaking of fish on Rosh Hashana[3]<http://ohr.edu/7040#_edn3>.


Many readers are probably puzzled by the last paragraph, and might exclaim
after rereading it: "What? How is that possible? Everyone eats fish on Rosh
Hashana. In fact it is even one of the Simanim! How can something meant to
properly usher in the New Year possibly be prohibited?"


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From an upcoming Audio roundup:

http://www.yutorah.org/lec
tures/lecture.cfm/863298/rabbi-baruch-simon/rosh-hashanah-can-i-sleepnap-on
-rosh-hashanah/
Rabbi Baruch Simon -Rosh Hashanah: Can I sleep/nap on Rosh Hashanah

	    Yerushalmi (that we don't have) is the source of the custom of
	    not sleeping on Rosh Hashana.  There are many differing
	    opinions on the issue (e.g., ignore, only pm).  There is also a
	    custom to rise at the beginning of the day (TBD).  Best advice
	    (per Avi Mori Vrabbi Z11"hh) -keep your eye on the bouncing
	    ball (the ultimate prize).



KVCT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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Making the Beracha Mezonos in error over any food does Patter since Mezonos
has also a broader meaning of food. I do not think that is true of HaMotzi.

Bread Patters the other foods of the meal because they are Tafel to it the
way herring is Taffel to Kichel, peanut butter to a cracker, and bread is
Taffel to very salty foods, the very salty food itself being Taffel to the
very sweet fruits [Peiros Genoisor- the Beracha HaEitz Patters the salty
foods and the bread which one eats after the overwhelmingly sweet
aftertaste causes one to eat the salty after which the bread comes to
neutralise the salty taste - The Gemara in a beautiful measure of hyperbole
describes the glowing countenance of those who were eating Peiros Genoisor
as being so intense that any flies that attempt to land on their forehead
will just slide off]

Taffel has many applications for example wearing clothes during Shabbos
from a Reshus HaRabbim to a Reshus HaYachid, is permitted because they are
Taffel to the body. In that situation we see how extensive Taffel actually
is - it includes the feather in ones hat band. How would that translate
into what parts of the meal are Taffel to the bread even if the bread is
only the notional Ikkar of the meal.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Making the Beracha Mezonos in error over any food does Patter since
> Mezonos has also a broader meaning of food. I do not think that is true of
> HaMotzi.
>
> Bread Patters the other foods of the meal because they are Tafel to it the
> way herring is Taffel to Kichel, peanut butter to a cracker, and bread is
> Taffel to very salty foods
>
...
The Aruch Hashulchan explicitly disagrees with you. He writes that
bread/hamotzi has 2 dinim, the first that things are tafel to the bread but
the second is that hamotzi paturs other things even if they are not tafel.
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many thanks to R Akiva for the clarification and sources re LeiShev
BaSukkah.

If I may review - One MUST make the Beracha of LeiShev for the Mitzvah of
living in the Sukkah which includes eating drinking sleeping and lounging.
We pin that Beracha however to the significant act of eating a meal if and
only if there will be a meal during that sitting.

The MB quoting the ChAdam speaks of one who is fasting, who must make
therefore a Beracha upon entering the Sukkah.
Similarly,  if one is not fasting but after having eaten a meal, leaves the
Sukkah in such a manner that he is MaSiAch DaAs, and returns to the Sukkah
without intending to eat during that sitting but will again leave - he too
must make the Beracha for that non-eating sitting.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:59:11AM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
: I understand that wearing blue shirts on Shabbos is a sign of kalus  rosh 
: and impiety, but whole wheat challah?!  Do different varieties of  bread 
: signify different points on the frum spectrum? she asked  with a rye smile.

Historically, dark bread was considered inferior. Thus, unlike fashions
in clothing or table-cloth colors, there are actual pesaqim against
using dark, coarse, bread.

I don't think anyone holds they still apply mei'iqar hadin, now that many
consider whole wheat bread superior to white. But RMF (in the teshvah
under discussion, but phrased in my own terms) holds that this challah
recipe norm had risen to the level of minhag, and shouldn't be changed.
I do not know if RMF would say the same to someone who prefers whole wheat
bread for taste reasons rather than health benefits. As his objection
was that the difference in health benefit was insufficient reason to
use aesthetically inferior bread.

(And not too many people who accept the benefits of avoiding white bread
would say there is a serious problem with making an exception for three
hamotzis a weak, plus chagim.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org        the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org   the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507      by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook


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