Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 115

Sat, 17 Sep 2016

• 1. Re: gem from the choshen (Micha Berger)
• 2. Mezonos rolls, airline meals (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Re: The amah and the floor of the Bet HaMikdash ()
• 4. hachi garsinan (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Rav Melamed on metal pots (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: gem from the choshen (Simon Montagu)
• 7. Re: Do you ever recite Birkas Hamazon on crackers? (Isaac Balbin)
• 8. Re: Mezonos Rolls? (Micha Berger)
• 9. 2 Pesakim from R Asher Weiss (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Do you ever recite Birkas Hamazon on crackers? (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: Mezonos Rolls? (Akiva Miller)
• 12. Wraps (Gershon)

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 05:32:30PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/75645

: Sometimes incredible stories are actually true, and in this case, experts
: agree that a small onyx claimed to be given to a Knight Templar over 1,000
: years ago and handed
: down through one family from generation to generation, is actually
: what the present
: owner claims: a gem from the breastplate of the High Priest in Jerusalem
: 
: Even more astounding than the cut of the stone was the inexplicable
: inscription *inside *the stone, visible through the clear surface: two
: letters in ancient Hebrew...

Okay, so when I first saw this article, I thought: well, that resolves
the kesav Ivri / kesav Ashuri question. The two letters are beis-kaf
in kesav Ivri (there are no sofios in Ivri).

Then I saw https://youtu.be/PPC7Ykrk-7o -- earlier coverage of the same
stone.

- There is a chance it's a natural flaw that "happens to look like "bakh".

- Those are the only two letters. It hit me that if this was from some
  kohein gadol's avnei shoham, the uniform must have had gezunter luchos
  on each shoulder to hold the names of 6 shevatim.

Shoham is the only stone in bigdei keunah believe to be black. Used for
the shoulders of the efod and for Yosef's stone on the choshen. Which
then led to the realization that:

- The letter pair b-k does not appear in any of the 12 names. Nor in
  "Avraham Yitzchaq Yaakov" nor "Shivtei Yeshurun". IOW, the engraving
  can't be from the bigdei KG simply because he doesn't wear those two
  letters next to eachother.

But if it was man-made, I am very curious to know both how and why.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

Anyone who lives in a first world country and thinks that airline food is a
meal, needs to have their head examined.

Just try serving one of them to your family or yourself at the next Shabbos
meal.
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| The water tunnel is 525m long. The inscription says that it's  1,200
| amos. Which would be 53.75cm per ammah. However, 1,200 is a round  number,
| meaning that the real value could be in the range of 1150 to 1250.  The
| largest possible ammah in late bayis rishon, given the  inscription,
| would be 45.7cm. 44.4cm or anything else the floor tiles might  have been
| is in range, even assuming the squares are the whole  design.


>>>>>
 
The largest possible ammah, at 45.7 cm, would be 18 inches, which is the  
number I've always used to translate ammos into modern  measurements.



--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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*for Talmud  Bavli Variants *
*Version 3*
We are pleased to announce the launch of the new version of the "Hachi
Garsinan" website - the Friedberg Website for Talmud Bavli Variants, part
of the Friedberg Portal: http://jewishmanuscripts.org
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001fbZ2_ELz2TfDN0iFifbHaeFORX71rpqFFXWD0XGneS
8K6NBFFlQRb6sJDbF1XIqlUJp7_j5RcwVuna7t7Sqdqw0aEDAzVQlUvLjdv6Vs22PnZBGj5cOcC
od6H1MdM3oP01JGyyj0PQ_oOutdGoV4npNne-IAQTjTgjJcAC19psvNz2U3whYtZA==&
;c=wfeHCYPGL6qg5mr9OpypDpEREv20q-79XXtXpVYTswJwScFcbiAzPg==&ch=GWPT-v4q
c44ati_e9fWTxJD0cWs1YyTCB04yl6gBRTq9Ihoh7ohiQg==>

For details, including a list of new Manuscripts see below.

With this release, we are starting a new chapter in the FGP/FJMS Projects.

Genazim Digital, which was directed by Professor Yaacov Choueka since its
inception, was recently merged into Amutat Kitvei Yad, a new non-profit
organization. This was done at the time of ProfessorYaacov Choueka's
Retirement in June 2016.

Amutat Kitvei Yad is under the direction of The Friedberg Genizah Project
(FGP) and The Friedberg Jewish Manuscripts Society (FJMS).

Our goals are to continue updating the sites implemented by Genazim
Digital; including The FGP Cairo Genizah Site, The Talmud Variants Site,
and others.

We are also in the process of creating new sites to increase the breadth of
the FGP/FJMS Projects.

We look forward to continuing the groundbreaking work done by Professor
Choueka, and to add to this important work.

Wishing everyone a Shana Tova - A Happy New Year.

Allen Krasna  C.E.O. Amutat Kitvei Yad.


The Friedberg Project Bavli Variants for Talmud Version: 3

The following manuscripts have been added to the new version:


   1. *Rab. 15* *(JTS 15)* - Avodah Zarah
   2. *Rab. 1623* *(Enelow 271)* - Pesahim, Yoma
   3. *Harley 5508* *(British Library 400)* - Rosh ha-Shanah, Yoma, Sukkah,
   Beitzah, Ta'anit, Megillah, Mo'ed Qatan, Hagigah
   4. *Fr. 51-68* (*N?rnberg [Pappenheim*]) - pages from tractate Mo'ed
   5. *Suppl. Heb 1408/82-84 (Paris 1408) *- Tamid
   6. *Yevr. I 190/1-21* (*Firkovich 190*) - Bava Batra
   7. *Cod. hebr. 95 (Munich 95)* - Rosh ha-Shanah, Yoma, Sukkah, Megillah,
   Yevamot, Ketubbot, Nedarim, Nazir, Sotah, Bava Qamma, Bava Metz'ia, Avodah
   Zarah, Zevahim, Menahot, Hullin, Bekhorot. The other tractates of this
   manuscript will be uploaded in the near future.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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<Could you please check those links? I got a "This page under construction"
error for both of them. >>
The whole yeshiva.org site seems to be nonexistent (thats what this page
under construction means)

see however the discussion of R. Lior's opinion (and so quotes) at

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26285/blias-in-todays
-pots-and-pans

<<> R Lior and R. Rabinovich are willing to accept that modern pots
> do not absorb or expel (more than minimally).  However, they both
> distinguish between lechachila and bi-deved.  Basically both
> allow use the same pots for milchig and fleishig lechachila
> because it would create many confusions.

There was a typo here, right? "Allow" should have been "forbid"? They might
allow it b'dieved, but the explanation shows that they would *not* allow it
l'chatchila. >>

Thanks for the correction - yes they both FORBID using the same pots for
milchig and fleishig lechatchila because of the many confusions it can cause


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 05:32:30PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/75645

> Sometimes incredible stories are actually true, and in this case, experts
> agree that a small onyx claimed to be given to a Knight Templar over 1,000
> years ago and handed
> down through one family from generation to generation, is actually
> what the present
> owner claims: a gem from the breastplate of the High Priest in Jerusalem

The article says 'According to the Auret family tradition, the ancestor,
named Croiz Arneet deTarn Auret, received the stone from "the High Priest"
in gratitude for his part in freeing Jerusalem around 1189.'

A total shot in the dark, but wouldn't the only person claiming to be
Kohen Gadol in the 12th century be a Shomroni? Which would also fit with
the ktav Ivri. On the other hand, a Shomroni wouldn't have cared much
about freeing Jerusalem, so I don't know.

On 16 Sep 2016, at 3:20 AM, via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> Why not drink an extra revi'is of wine for kiddush bimkom seudah, and
> skip the pas habo'oh bekisnin altogether?

The Ikkar of a Kiddush is good herring quaffed with yellow or white
(you might even use the opinion of the Butchacher to be Meikel on the
shiur needed, as a reviis on an empty stomach might get you in trouble
when you get home). The wine is usually sweetly shocking.

The herring is the Ikkar. The cracker is Tofel for sure. A good firm
Eyerkichel might be an issue as their gastronomic prominence exceeds the
cracker. They can house four or five pieces of herring. (Chips, Nuts,
Popcorn, Candy are pretty close to Zilzul Shabbos :-).

One of my grandsons (okay, I'm responsible) sees herring and says "Oh,
herring cake" and wolfs down up to 5 pieces without anything else. At
least I know Poilishe Mesora is continuing :-)

[Moderator note: This post would have been off topic, but it does make
clear that sometimes the motivation isn't halachic. Why not make qiddush
on a revi'is of wine? While halachically sound, he *wants* the cracker
for his herring. -micha]

Somewhat related is R Asher Weiss's pesaq on wraps, which just 
reached the English side of Tvunah (a web site of his Torah)
<http://en.tvunah.org/2016/09/16/bracha-on-wraps>:

Conclusion:
> Wraps are eaten in place of bread and Pita to make a sandwich type
> food. This is commonly eaten as a meal with kvius seuda, hence the wraps
> retain the status of bread and their bracha is hamotzi.

My LOR holds that food made from belilah raqa are mezonos, regardless
of qevi'as se'udah. Unlike cake or crackers.

Similarly, he holds that cooked dough would never be a hamotzi, even if
one is qovei'ah se'udah.

I am wondering if RAW would say that one should make a hamotzi for a
spaghetti and meatball dinner too.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

2 other additions to Tvuna in English (most of the teshuvos left in Hebrew)

1- <http://en.tvunah.org/2016/09/16/zika-virus-advice>

Q:`
> ... would like to know the psak for my patients regarding the WHO
> advice for a period of abstinence of 6 months between couples if one of
> them has returned from a place with active zika virus...

A:
> The advice of the health organizations should be taken seriously
> as there is concern for major birth defects with this virus. One who
> returned from a place with Zika could probably be tested for the virus
> and if clean would not have to wait the 6 months you mentioned.

2- <http://en.tvunah.org/2016/09/16/sterilisation-for-non-jew>

Q:
> Is a Jewish doctor permitted to carry out a sterilisation procedure
> (vasectomy or tubal ligation) for a non-Jewish patient?

A:
> A jewish doctor should not perform this type of procedure on a non Jew. He
> may refer a patient at the patient's request, being that the patient
> presumably can and will find a way to have this procedure carried out
> in any event.

Again, Meqoros uBi'urim on-site.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I raised the problem of eating meal-type foods with Pas Habaah B'Kisnin at
kiddush, and R' Zev Sero suggested:

> Why not drink an extra revi'is of wine for kiddush bimkom
> seudah, and skip the pas habo'oh bekisnin altogether?

That certainly would work, and in fact that's what I did a few years back,
when my weight-loss surgery put me on an all-liquid diet for a while. (Of
course, even though Kvius Seudah was no longer a barrier to enjoying the
cholent, the liquid diet kept the cholent banned. :-)

On the other hand, Mishneh Brurah 273:25 writes, "See the Chidushei Rabbi
Akiva Eiger and the [Torah Shleima?] who prove that according to many
rishonim, one is NOT yotzay Kiddush B'Makom Seudah with a cup of wine.
Therefore, it seems that one should not be lenient in this except B'Makom
Had'chak."

And in fact, he goes even further in Beur Halacha 273 "Kasvu Hageonim",
citing the Gra, who would not make Kiddush - even the daytime Kiddush -
except at a "seudah gemura", and not on "minei targima" or wine.

Akiva Miller
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R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> My wife returned on EL from EY last Sunday.  She had ordered
> mehadrin food. It came with a roll marked "Mezonos." It is hard
> for me to understand how the Mehadrin hashgacha could label a
> roll "Mezonos" in the light of the following. I can only wonder
> why people are being misled.

Unfortunately, I cannot find any sources, but the question should not go
unanswered, so I will say this, based on what I've heard over the years:

There are poskim - and I understand that they tend to be Chassidic - who
hold that Kvias Seudah in this case is determined ONLY by the amount of Pas
Habbah B'Kisinin that one eats, regardless of what other foods are also
eaten. In other words, one would never Hamotzi unless if the amount of
mezonos eaten is above the shiur of "three or four k'beitzim". If so, there
is no problem with saying mezonos on such a roll, and the appropriate
brachos on the other foods in that airline meal, and eating it all in a
manner exactly as if the roll had been real bread.

There is another question to ask beyond the manner in which the roll is
eaten, and that is to identify whether the roll - in and of itself - is Pas
Habaah B'Kisnin or Pas Gamur. I think that the above-mentioned poskim tend
to look strictly at the ingredients: As long as there is less water than
juice, oil, eggs, etc., then they identify it as Pas Habaah B'Kisnin even
if it tastes like regular bread.

If the poskim of the hechsher on those airline meals hold as I've
described, then they are 100% entitled to label the roll as "mezonos", and
it is unfair to accuse them of "misleading" anyone. One might argue that
they *are* misleading people, since the hechsher ought to know that most
people hold differently, but my guess is that they would respond, "We hold
this to be the ikar hadin, and if some - or most - people want to be
machmir, they are entitled to do so."

Akiva Miller
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Rabbi Bodner of Berachos book fame told me that he showed various types of wraps to Rav Elyashiv z"l & he said they are mezonos EVEN bekvias Seudah

Recently i saw that Rav Dovid Feinstein said they require hamotzi bekvias Seudah. 

Sent from my iPhone

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