Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 114

Thu, 15 Sep 2016

• 1. Re: Geonim, Rambam and Other Rishonim on Mesorah and Pesak (Micha Berger)
• 2. Mezonos Rolls? (Prof. Levine)
• 3. R Avraham (Eli Turkel)
• 4. a story for our time (Michael Poppers)
• 5. Re: Mezonos Rolls? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: Do you ever recite Birkas Hamazon on crackers? (Akiva Miller)
• 8. gem from the choshen (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Do you ever recite Birkas Hamazon on crackers? (Zev Sero)

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 08:38:35AM -0400, H Lampel wrote:
: On 9/13/2016 11:19 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
:>: One must strive to get a complete picture of a Gaon's or rishon's
:>: position, and not stop at some broadly-worded statements, ignoring further
:>: qualifications...

:> ... You are arguing from example, not contrary explanation.

: Please explain. I don't know what you mean or what I wrote that
: you're referring to. What did I write that is arguing from example?
: What is wrong with that? What does it mean to argue from contrary
: explanation? And why would that be better?

You are arguing that rishon X couldn't mean what he actually said,
because there are counter-examples in specific dinim.

What is wrong with that is spelled out in the rest of the paragraph.

Mashal:
There are people who like dwelling on the 2% of the cases where the
SA ends up ruling differently than his triumberate. Does that mean
that as a rule, he doesn't really use it? Or that there are other
rules in play that come to the fore in too few occasions to bother with
in an intro?

Similarly here. We have a statement of the Rambam, or the Ran, or the
Ritva. Even if that statement had exceptions, it would at most mean
that said rishon was "only" speaking about ruba deruba of machloqesin,
and that the Rambam might believe that there are a few rare exception
machloqesin that are Constitutive. but still those are the rare excpetion

(As RNS put it: The survival of Mike the Headless chicken for 18 months
after his beheading out of millenia of chicken consumption doesn't
disprove pesiq reishei! And conversely, emunas chakhamim in their
saying pesiq reishei doesn't mean disbelieving what thousands of
people saw in the mid-20th cent CE.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken>)

But that wasn't my masqanah. I think you're oversimplifying RMH's model.
The differences between Accumulative and Constitutive law is far more
subtle than your summary makes it seem. As I said in my post. And
therefore, while the summary makes the quotes surprising, given the
actual model, they are not.

The Rambam holds a pesaq is a human invention. That G-d giving the kelalei
hapesaq (in grandfather form -- they too were subjevt to pesaq over the
millenia!) does not mean He gave every conclusion, and therefore that both
tzadadim could be right.

The Rambam couldn't hold that -- it defies Aristo's Logic. Or Boolean
Logic. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction>

The majority of rishonim give HQBH "ownership" of all the conclusions,
even though they contradict. Choosing not to reinterpret the gemaros --
"kulam nitnu miro'eh echad", "49 panim tahor, 49 panim tamei", "eilu
va'eilu" etc... to fit the Law of Non-Contradiction.

And therefore, leshitasam, a real machloqes is where neither side is
wrong. Both are actually teaching Torah, not just "the best we can
do, so Hashem told us to follow it lemaaseh."

Therefore, according to the Rambam, there could be a solid proof that
an earlier beis din erred, and then the law would change. Authority is
only an issue with dinim derabbanan (gezeiros and taqanos), and who can
repeal a law, not with interpetation of existing law.

Whereas according to rov rishonim, it's a matter of which BD could give
more authority to one valid shitah or the other.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

My wife returned on EL from EY last Sunday.  She had ordered mehadrin 
food.  It came with a roll marked "Mezonos."   It is hard for me to 
understand how the Mehadrin hashgacha could label a roll "Mezonos" in 
the light of the following.  I can only wonder why people are being misled. YL

 From the OU Halacha Yomis.

Q: I have seen sandwiches and rolls labeled "Mezonos Rolls." Is the 
bracha on these rolls really mezonos?


A. As noted in the previous Halacha Yomis, the Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 
168:7) rules that the bracha on baked dough made with honey, oil, 
milk or spices is borei minei mezonos. How much spice or flavor must 
be added to the dough to render the bracha mezonos and not hamotzi? 
The Shulchan Aruch rules that a discernable taste is sufficient, and 
this position is followed by Sephardic Jewry. In contrast, the Rama 
rules that the flavor must be predominant, and this ruling is 
followed by Ashkenazic Jewry. The OU poskim, as well as many others, 
understand the Rama to mean that the bracha is mezonos only if the 
final product tastes like cake, and not like bread.

"Mezonos Rolls" are generally kneaded with fruit juice and water. 
Typically, they taste almost exactly like regular rolls. Rav Belsky 
and Rav Schachter both held that they are without question hamotzi 
for Ashkenazim. Even for Sephardim, the bracha may be hamotzi, since 
the fruit juice is often not discernable.


 From today's OU Halacha Yomi.


Q: I have seen sandwiches and rolls labeled "Mezonos Rolls." Is the 
bracha on these rolls really mezonos?

A. As noted in the previous Halacha Yomis, the Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 
168:7) rules that the bracha on baked dough made with honey, oil, 
milk or spices is borei minei mezonos. How much spice or flavor must 
be added to the dough to render the bracha mezonos and not hamotzi? 
The Shulchan Aruch rules that a discernable taste is sufficient, and 
this position is followed by Sephardic Jewry. In contrast, the Rama 
rules that the flavor must be predominant, and this ruling is 
followed by Ashkenazic Jewry. The OU poskim, as well as many others, 
understand the Rama to mean that the bracha is mezonos only if the 
final product tastes like cake, and not like bread.

"Mezonos Rolls" are generally kneaded with fruit juice and water. 
Typically, they taste almost exactly like regular rolls. Rav Belsky 
and Rav Schachter both held that they are without question hamotzi 
for Ashkenazim. Even for Sephardim, the bracha may be hamotzi, since 
the fruit juice is often not discernable.


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<<A more controversial point he made is that the total change of personality
: in teshuva is a special chessed of hashem and the regular person can't
make
: such a change in a different situation.

I don't get this. First he says that the same mechanicsm does work
the other way, then he says it can't -- that the self-change is
only possible through a chessed associated with teshuvah? >>

His position is that teshuva on an individual sin(s) is a normal process
but it requires
the technicalities of teshuva (vidui etc). It works in only one direction,
ie one can remove sins but not good deeds

The second teshuva is the change of the entire personality. RMA claim is
that is only by a special gift from G-d. This works in both directions,
since one is a new person it can remove both sins and good deeds (then its
not really a gift). In this case one need not go through the technicalities
of teshuva.

In passing he mentioned that halachic seforim tend to stress the first type
of teshuva while machshava seforim stress the second type but in reality
both exist

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Received this evening from the JEC Adath Israel
<http://www.adathisraelshul.org/> e-list:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 12:52 PM
To: Zichron Shlomo Cong <congregationzichronshl...@gmail.com>

A story is told of a king, a very benevolent and kind king. He loved his
countrymen, and they loved him too. Fairness and Justice was the law
of the land. Every accused had the right to a fair trial, and people
were judged with great mercy. In fact, many human rights laws of the
modern world were practiced in this kingdom. (There was a law that even
after a person was tried for a crime and sentenced, he would be able
to have the sentence repealed if he declared in public "Long live the
king!" with all his might! [i] Unfortunately, few took advantage of
this unique leniency.)

It was well known that the king was always willing to help out his
subjects in all their needs. In fact, a ministry of his government was
dedicated to helping out individual and communal matters throughout the
land. When a city or community appealed for his help, he would never
refuse them.[ii] The king had a particular affinity for his Jewish
subjects.

One day, word went out that the king was planning on visiting the city!
Additionally, his Majesty intended to visit the Jewish Quarter, and
agreed to grant an audience to each and every person living there[iii]
and will be open to considering all their personal needs![iv]

The Jews were ecstatic! What an opportunity! This was going to be one
of the most significant events ever.

Preparations began in all parts of the city. New flowers were planted,
boulevards repaved, and everything was set in place for the upcoming
visit.

But the Jewish Quarter wouldn't suffice with a mere facelift. After all,
the king will be spending considerable time there. Now, you need to
understand the issue. You see, everybody loved the king dearly. Nobody
would want to disappoint him. But human nature, combined with personal
and family needs, sometimes collaborate to help people forget the law. No
malice intended. The fact is that people run about their busy lives,
and the law often gets neglected. One fellow owed three years of back
taxes; another person built an illegal extension, a third one got into
trouble with some bad friends.

On the communal level too, things weren't perfect. Last winter's potholes
were never repaired, the shul and community hall were in disrepair. Each
individual had his host of problems he needed to address before being
able to face the king. The king will be fully informed.

You need to understand the severity of the situation. Imagine this
person who owed taxes, standing in audience, requesting help to heal
his sick daughter, and the king, after listening intently, asks him,
"OK, we can get you the finest doctor, but tell me, how are things
by you? Why aren't you up to date with your taxes?" Could you imagine
the shame? I mean, it's not only that. He might be imprisoned on the
spot! One CANNOT face the king with such baggage.

The guy with the renovation, if he doesn't want to be in deep trouble,
it would be smart if he applied for a building permit now, ahead of the
king's visit. It's obvious; no one can face the king without having done
some serious inventory. Everything has got to be squeaky clean.

In all truth, there was a great blessing concealed in this visit.
Otherwise, things could have continued so for a long time, with offenses,
small and big, building up, until the king would have had enough of it
and punished the entire community, as he has done in numerous cities
under his rule.[v]

So this pending visit gave everyone the opportunity to come clean,
and to refresh their loyalty and commitment to his Majesty.[vi]

There was no doubt in anyone's mind that the king would accept their
sincere remorse for their misdeeds and grant them clemency.[vii]

At the recent town meeting, a concern was raised. Most of the community
members were completely unaccustomed to royalty. They might never have
seen a royal motorcade, never heard or seen the marching band of the
king's army. How will they be aware of the critical importance of this
big day? So it was decided that every morning forthwith, a trumpet would
be blast all across town. That would serve as a wake-up call to remind
the people to prepare for the big day.[viii]

Moshe, a long-time resident, captured the feelings in the air, "We are
so happy and honored to privilege such an occasion, which express the
deep feelings of love we all have to the king.[ix] But, at the same time,
we are very fearful as well."[x]

--


???
???: ??? ???"? ?? ????? ??i ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????i ?? ??? ????

[ii]
???
???? ??, ?, ??' ????? ??? ????? ???? ????????i ??i ??????

[iii]
????
???? ?? ??? ???? ?????i ????? ???? ???i (???? ?"? ??, ?)

[iv]
??'
?? ??, ?, ???? ?' ?????? ?????? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ???? ???i ??? ????
???? ????????

[v]
??"?
?????? ??, ??, ??i ???"? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????. ????i ??? ??? ?"? ??'
????

[vi]
????
?????? ????? ?????? (???"? ??, ?)

[vii]
????
????? ??: ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????
(??' ?? ?:)

[viii]
???
??"? ???i ????, ??i ?????? ?????? ?"? ????? ?????i ???? ???? ???? ??? ???
???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??
??????

[ix]
????
??? ????? ?????, ?? ???? ?????i ?? ????...

[x]
????
?? ?' ????? ????? ?????, ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? (????? ?, ?, ????i ?????
???? ??)

--
Zev Wolbe

On 14/09/16 14:44, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> My wife returned on EL from EY last Sunday.  She had ordered mehadrin
> food.  It came with a roll marked "Mezonos."   It is hard for me to
> understand how the Mehadrin hashgacha could label a roll "Mezonos" in
> the light of the following.  I can only wonder why people are being
> misled. YL

It's very simple.  The hashgacha is entitled to disagree with the OU's view.

OU-certified meals have hamotzi bread, and the insert informs the passenger
of this fact, and advises that if washing is impractical then they should
not eat the bread, or save it for later.   And the OU comes in for regular
criticism, from those who want mezonos bread and don't want the OU making
that decision for them; from those who didn't bother to read the insert and
just assumed the bread to be mezonos, and now blame the OU for not having
anticipated their unfounded assumption; and from those who say that if the
bread can't be readily eaten with the meal then it shouldn't be there at all.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> The teshuva of R. Lior is found at
> http://www.yeshiva.org/ask/?id=71715
> and http://www.yeshiva.org/ask/?id=56591

Could you please check those links? I got a "This page under construction"
error for both of them.

> Conclusions: the absorption in all the pots was extremely minimal
> except for the clay pots.

I imagine that this might explain why clay cannot be kashered but other
materials can be kashered. But it does NOT help us understand any
distinction between materials that can be kashered with difficulty vs
materials that can be kashered more easily (libun vs hagala, or hagala vs
mere washing).

My understanding is that we have three categories of materials: (1) It
absorbs, and will release that taam forever and therefore cannot be
kashered - such as clay. (2) It absorbs, but it is possible to totally
remove that taam, i.e. to kasher it - such as metal and wood. (3) It never
even absorbs, so all you need to do is to make sure it is clean - such a
glass (at least theoretically). If the goal of these experiments is to
determine if some new materials might be in the third category, I do not
see this being accomplished.

> They suggest several future experiments including using pots from
> the days of chazal and the rishonimIn. In particular R. Eitam
> Henkin (Hy"d) - Hamayan 54:2 claimed that without comparing the
> results to ancient pots the results are of limited value! The
> authors argue that we don't know exactly what pots chazal used.
> They also didn't agree with the argument that the sense of taste
> has changed from the days of Chazal.

Baruch shekivanti to Rav Henkin. But I don't comprehend the authors'
response. Our lack of knowing about Chazal's pots should *confound* the
experiments, and *prevent* any practical conclusions.

> R Lior and R. Rabinovich are willing to accept that modern pots
> do not absorb or expel (more than minimally).  However, they both
> distinguish between lechachila and bi-deved.  Basically both
> allow use the same pots for milchig and fleishig lechachila
> because it would create many confusions.

There was a typo here, right? "Allow" should have been "forbid"? They might
allow it b'dieved, but the explanation shows that they would *not* allow it
l'chatchila.

Akiva Miller
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R' Yitzchok Levine posted:

From today's OU Halacha Yomis
>
> Q: Do you ever recite Birkas Hamazon on crackers?

The simple answer is: Yes, many people do, especially when Erev Pesach is
on Shabbos, and they choose to use Matzah Ashira for their Lechem Mishneh.

> A: The Gemara (Brachos 42) states that if one eats an entire meal
> of an item that is considered "pas haba'ah b'kisnin" (see earlier
> Halacha Yomis for explanation of that term), the bracha on that
> food (e.g. crackers) would be Hamotzi and one would recite Birkas
> Hamazon. The Magen Avraham (O.C. 168:24) clarifies that one would
> say Hamotzi in the following two instances: 1) If one ate only
> crackers, and consumed an amount that would suffice as a main meal
> (such as dinner) for an average person. 2) Alternatively, if one
> ate other foods (for example, herring along with the crackers),
> and together these foods are a full meal, one would recite Birkas
> Hamazon. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe O.C. 3:32) states that
> in the latter case, one must consume the amount of crackers
> equivalent to the normal amount of bread eaten at a meal.
> According to Rav Belsky, this would be equivalent to two slices
> of bread.

I recommend seeing that Igros Moshe inside. It's only a half-page long (the
last two paragraphs are on related topics).

Rav Moshe explains the nowadays, "in this country," people eat much less
bread than before, and the shiur is much less than three beitzim.
Therefore, he gives this example: If someone is at a wedding and doesn't
want to wash and have to wait for the zimun, he should avoid eating any
cake, "for if he eats even a little cake, sometimes it will be the shiur of
'how much bread one eats at a seudah'. ... And therefore, in this country,
where because we have so much, people eat only a little bread, one should
not eat cake unless it is less than the bread one eats at a meal of meat
and other things. And when it is difficult for him to measure this, then he
should not eat cake."

It seems that unlike Rav Belsky, Rav Moshe seems to have specifically
avoided giving a specific shiur. And with all due respect to Rav Belsky, I
have often seen people at the Shabbos table eat no more bread than a bite
or two of their lechem mishneh slice. Rav Moshe referred to this country as
bountiful, with so much to eat beside bread that it is no longer the staple
of our diet. It seems to me that in the decades since he wrote that, our
society has gone even further, and bread is seen as a food to be eaten in
limited amounts for health reasons. This could easily impact one's
determination of how much is typically eaten at a meal.

On the other hand, it also seems to me that Rav Moshe's opinion on this is
not generally accepted by most people. I often see people at a kiddush
eating all sorts of food indiscriminately, and it is not unusual for them
to be sated by this to the point where they choose to delay lunch for a
while. And if it was a particularly sumptuous kiddush, they might skip
lunch altogether. Sometimes I hear them ask a question of whether it is
okay to skip the Seudah Shniyah in such a case, but I never hear them ask
if they should have washed and benched at the kiddush.

My personal practice at a kiddush is to first survey the tables for some
noodle kugel or pasta salad that I can use for Kiddush B'makom Seudah, in
which case I'll allow myself free rein of the other foods (including even
some Pas Habaah B'Kisnin, though I ration it to less than a kezayis per
keday achilas pras). If the only mezonos at the kiddush is Pas Habaah
B'Kisnin, then I limit myself to only a few kezaysim of it, plus some snack
foods (chips, nuts, popcorn, candy), but absolutely no meal foods like
cholent, tuna, or potato kugel, because that could make my eating into the
sort that Rav Moshe would label as Kevius Seudah. For example, see the very
last paragraph of Igros Moshe OC 4:41, where he specifically writes that
"one should eat only the baked items, or only meat and fish and other
items."

Akiva Miller
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Sometimes incredible stories are actually true, and in this case, experts
agree that a small onyx claimed to be given to a Knight Templar over 1,000
years ago and handed
down through one family from generation to generation, is actually
what the present
owner claims: a gem from the breastplate of the High Priest in Jerusalem

Even more astounding than the cut of the stone was the inexplicable
inscription *inside *the stone, visible through the clear surface: two
letters in ancient Hebrew. Dr. Stone wrote in his appraisal of the gem, ?There
is no modern or ancient technology known to me by which an artisan could
produce the inscription, as it is not cut into the surface of the stone.?

He dated production of the stone to approximately the 5th century BCE.As an
appraiser, Dr. Strange could not erase all doubt, but he could certainly
evaluate it as a one-of-a-kind. He appraised the stone?s value at $175-$225
million.

In his written report, he said that when he held it to the light, he was
amazed to see very clearly inside the stone itself, two letters in ancient
Hebrew. The letters seemed to be engraved or burnt into the heart of the
stone.


 http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/75645/bin-exclusive-lost-
stone-high-priests-prophetic-breastplate-thought-found-incredible-journey

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 15/09/16 07:55, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> My personal practice at a kiddush is to first survey the tables for
> some noodle kugel or pasta salad that I can use for Kiddush B'makom
> Seudah, in which case I'll allow myself free rein of the other foods
> (including even some Pas Habaah B'Kisnin, though I ration it to less
> than a kezayis per keday achilas pras). If the only mezonos at the
> kiddush is Pas Habaah B'Kisnin, then I limit myself to only a few
> kezaysim of it, plus some snack foods (chips, nuts, popcorn, candy),
> but absolutely no meal foods

Why not drink an extra revi'is of wine for kiddush bimkom seudah, and
skip the pas habo'oh bekisnin altogether?


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis


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