Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 105

Tue, 30 Aug 2016

• 1. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 5. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 6. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Zev Sero)
• 7. Some hot milk spilled on my fleishig counter and I would like to kasher it. (Professor L. Levine)
• 8. Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Eli Turkel)
• 9. laws of nature (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs (Micha Berger)

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 03:29:49PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: Do the laws of aveilut change at all if a parent sexually abuses a
: child and the parent dies?

I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim,
and the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav
Reuven Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah. But I must confess,
it was far from a somber shiv'ah house. The whole experience was weird.

But I would think that the pesaq in the case you give might not have a
general rule. What may be a piquach nefesh level sanity issue for one
victim might not be for another.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Monday, August 29, 2016 3:59 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 03:29:49PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
>: Do the laws of aveilut change at all if a parent sexually abuses a
>: child and the parent dies?

> I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim,
> and the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav
> Reuven Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah...

My son had a classmate (and good friend) in high school whose father
murdered his mother when he was a young child. His father went to jail. He
was raised by his grandmother and never spoke to his father again. When
his father died, he did not sit Shiva and and was not Noheg Aveilus
at all.

Was he right?

HM

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 09:51:20PM +0000, Harry Maryles wrote:
: My son had a classmate (and good friend) in high school whose father
: murdered his mother when he was a young child. His father went to jail. He
: was raised by his grandmother and never spoke to his father again. When
: his father died, he did not sit Shiva and and was not Noheg Aveilus
: at all.

: Was he right?

In the Hakira article RJR pointed RJBW first discusses aveilus.
He dismisses the emotional state of the aveil as a factor in the
chiyuv. Citing RYBS as saying halakhah demands a full emotional control
that may oftimes not actually be real. However, in the case where the
aveilus would be traumatic to the victim, that chiyuv may be overridden.

He also discusses aveilus for sinners -- porshim midrakhei tzibur (the
Rambam's case), habitual sinners. The SA and Mordekhai say we do morn
the occasional sinner, if acting letei'avon.

But then moving on to the chiyuv of kavod, kibud av is not haqaras
hatov. Famously, it is on the first luach because it's really a mitzvah
BALM; how one treats the two partners in his birth whom he can see,
impacts the kavod he gives the Third Partner whom he cannot.

http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%209%20Wolowelsky.pdf

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

R' YL:
:> Does Daf Yomi meet the above definition of the ideal type of :> Talmud
Torah? That depends. If a person spends the proper amount :> of time on each
daf so that he can analyze it, understand it, and have :> it sink into his
memory so that he will not forget it, then obviously it :> does...

R'MB:
As I would put it, daf yomi's true value is in the number of magidei shiur
it requires, rather than the number of attendees. Prep alone means that more
gemara is really being learned than ever before.

In prior iterations, I noted what the AhS (YD 246:17) said about the
phenomena of shuls' chevrah shas -- same pace but without global
synchronization.
<SNIP>
----------------------------- 

While I don't doubt that R' YL is correct in a perfect world, in an
imperfect world Daf Yomi is going to be the catalyst for many people who
otherwise wouldn't learn. Just the social aspect is significant, but the
built in deadline is crucial to making people want to keep up and not skip
even one day. 

But I want to add one thing to R' MB's list of benefits that Daf Yomi has.
The Gemara (Berachos 6b) says that the reward people receive for going the a
derashah is because they ran there - not because of the learning they did
there. Rashi explains that they don't receive reward for the learning itself
because "most of them don't understand in a way that they can maintain the
text and repeat the halachah in the name of their teacher after a while." So
this is certainly not a new issue. That said, no one in the time of the
Gemara advocated stopping giving shiurim TTBOMK, or that people stop going
to the derashah and learn a different way. I think we can conclude from this
that the going itself is significant enough of a benefit that one should
still do it.

On a personal level, I have a lot of hesitation when anyone has taanos on
anyone learning in any way that's not clearly against halachah. You want to
sit in Bermuda shorts in a hot tub and learn? You want to lie on the couch
on learn? You want to learn on Nittel Nacht? You want to rely on those who
say that you can learn on 9 Av that comes out on Shabbos even after chatzos?
You want to learn while you sip a martini? You want to learn daf yomi? Go
ahead. Learn. You keep on learning and learning and everything else will
sort itself out. 

KT,
MYG

R'MB:
I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim, and
the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav Reuven
Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah. But I must confess, it was
far from a somber shiv'ah house. The whole experience was weird.
----------------------------- 

Another weird case I've wondered about for years: A man receives a heter
mei'ah rabbanim, marries again, and then his first (and still) wife dies. He
sits shivah for the first, presumably, even though they may have been
estranged for years. (A similar situation, though less weird to me, would be
in regards to an agunah, where a spouse would presumably sit shivah for the
spouse even though they haven't been in contact for years.)

KT,
MYG

On 29/08/16 22:36, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> (A similar situation, though less weird to me, would be in regards
> to an agunah, where a spouse would presumably sit shivah for the
> spouse even though they haven't been in contact for years.)

In most cases an agunah would be receiving a shmua rechoka, so she would
only sit for a short time.  But yes, if she gets a shmua krova she'd have
to sit a whole shiva, and wonder at the irony.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis.


Some hot milk spilled on my fleishig counter and I would like to kasher it. Can I boil the kashering water in my microwave and then pour it over that spot?


A. The general rule that governs kashering is k'bolo kach polto (the method
that was utilized to absorb is the same one that is needed to purge). Since
the counter became non-kosher by having hot milk spill on it, one may
kasher by pouring boiling water over that area. However, Shulchan Aruch
(Orach Chaim 452:5) writes that if the non-kosher item (or, in this case,
the milk) was heated by fire, the kashering water must also be heated by
fire. Therefore, one may not kasher utensils that became non-kosher through
fire in a hot spring. This is true even if the water in the spring is
equally hot (boiling). Since a microwave oven heats water without fire, it
has the same limitation as water from a hot spring, and cannot be used in
place of water heated by a fire. If however, the hot milk that spilled on
the counter was also heated in a microwave, then the microwave can be used
to heat the water for kashering.


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<<> I understand that some people are mahmir not to use the same
> glassware for both meat and milk,

This is not a chumra.  It's ikar hadin, according to Ashkenazim. >>

Common practice is to use the same drinking glasses for both milchig and
fleishig meals

from Rav Heineman


*BEVERAGE GLASSES**Q: Can one use the same glass beverage glasses for both
dairy and meat meals?*
*A: *Yes.

*Q: Can these glasses be used for both hot and cold beverages?*
*A: *Yes.


*WHISKEY GLASSES**Q: Can the same whiskey glasses be used for both dairy
and meat meals?*
*A: *Yes

see
http://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/1162/a-crystal
-clear-halachic-approach-to-glass/

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I just finished reading the book QED (quantum electrodynamics) by Richard
Feynman who received a Nobel prize for his part in the theory

He stresses in the book that the purpose of physics is to determine the
results in the real world, i.e. the how and not the why. Thus, while
quantum theory is weird and not understood by anyone QED is much more
strange. In the calculations .while includes an electron emitting an photon
and then reabsorbing the same photon. A photon can create an electron and
positron and then annihilate themselves to create a photon etc. He stresses
that we don't know iof all this really happens but the theory matched many
experimenst to multiple digits of accuracy and so it is "correct".

There are those that claim that there is nothing as a law of nature but
rather G-d continually guides every single incident to the identical
result. Feynman would claim that such a claim is irrelevant (perhaps true
but irrelevant)

1) It is impossible to even theoretically create an experiment that would
prove or disprove the assertion
2) It does nothing to help determine the outcome of any experiment and so
is irrelevant for physics.
One can argue for G-d and one can argue for an alien race that determines
everything in the world using their super-super computer.

Note the same argument applies to those that argue that the world is some
5700 years and was created so that it looks older. Again it can never be
tested and can never help any measurement.
One can equally well believe the world was created 200 years to look older.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


winners. However, some of his actions were quite immoral showing that there
is no connection between brilliance and morality

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 30/08/16 14:27, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>>> I understand that some people are mahmir not to use the same
>>> glassware for both meat and milk,

>> This is not a chumra.  It's ikar hadin, according to Ashkenazim.

> Common practice is to use the same drinking glasses for both milchig
> and fleishig meals

For Ashkenazim there is no difference between glass and ceramics.
Drinking glasses are always used cold, so it doesn't matter what they're
made of.  They could be ceramic or metal and they'd still be usable at
both kinds of meals, so long as they're clean.   If he's permitting them
to be used for hot drinks as well, he's assuming that we're talking about
hot pareve tea *after* the meal; the tea is parev, and there's no meat or
milk to be nivla` at one meal and niflat at the other.  I doubt he'd permit
a glass used for milchig coffee to be used for hot tea *while* eating meat,
let alone putting meat in the glass.



-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

>                                                  If he's permitting them
> to be used for hot drinks as well, he's assuming that we're talking about
> hot pareve tea *after* the meal; the tea is parev, and there's no meat or
> milk to be nivla` at one meal and niflat at the other.  I doubt he'd permit
> a glass used for milchig coffee to be used for hot tea *while* eating meat,
> let alone putting meat in the glass.

> Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire

Just to be clear Rav Heineman writes

Q: Is china glass?
A: It is customary to consider it as earthenware.

Q: Is corningware glass?
A: No, it is like china.
Q: Can these glasses be used for both hot and cold beverages?
A: Yes.

Q: Can other glass dishes, such as salad bowls or casseroles, be used for
both dairy and meat meals?
A: If the food is cold, or the glass dish is used as a Kli Sheini, it may
be used for both dairy and meat meals. Unless it is used on the oven or
range, a Kli Sheini is okay.

In my experience most ashkenazim use the same glass for milk at a milchig
meal and then wash the glass and use it
for hot tea at (during) a fleishig meal. I doubt if people put in meat into
a drinking glass.
None of my friends drink hot milk.

For a real psak someone can contact Rav Heineman

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 30/08/16 15:30, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> In my experience most ashkenazim use the same glass for milk at a
> milchig meal and then wash the glass and use it for hot tea at
> (during) a fleishig meal. I doubt if people put in meat into a
> drinking glass. None of my friends drink hot milk.

The Ramo says clearly that glass is earthenware, and even hag`olo
doesn't help.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 03:46:20PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: The Ramo says clearly that glass is earthenware, and even hag`olo
: doesn't help.

... for chameitz. It is noted that he does not repeat the same thing
in YD. (Eg Peri Megadim (OC 451 MZ 31 "dad", YD 105 MZ 1 "ve'im").
The Minchas Yitzcoq (shu"t 1:86) therefore says that hag'alah would work
-- so not as meiqil as the Mechaber, but still, not keli chares.

The AhS YD 121:2 says that one may buy used glassware from a non-Jew
as long as they are washed and scrubbed well, "lefi shehein chalaqim
ve'einam bol'im".

I find no chiddush in R' Heineman holding like the AhS.

However, se'if 9 discussing cooking utensils says that keli zekhukhis ein
bahem tashmish bechamin. So if glass were usable as actual keli rishon
cookware, perhaps he would be machmir. But the AhS predated the common
use of pyrex and the like.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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