Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 98

Thu, 18 Aug 2016

• 1. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. The Most Detrimental Thing to Our Relationship with G-d (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Re: plurals (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: plurals (Simi Peters)
• 6. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Isaac Balbin)
• 8. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Isaac Balbin)
• 10. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: FW: plurals (Zev Sero)
• 12. blinded by the light? (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Zev Sero)

On 17/08/16 17:35, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> Whilst it certainly sounded like Zelik when said, it is most commonly
> written with the Gimmel.

As I explained, that's because in German it's spelt with a G.  But since
Yiddish no longer slavishly follows German spelling, that should be
irrelevant.   And even when it was fashionable to pretend to be writing
German, halocho seems not to have taken any notice, and the first spelling
given in the Beis Shmuel is with a kuf.

But I haven't seen the Mahari Mintz's discussion of the subject, and
that's probably where you should look if you want a serious explanation.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 18 Aug 2016, at 8:03 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 17/08/16 17:35, Isaac Balbin wrote:
>> Whilst it certainly sounded like Zelik when said, it is most commonly
>> written with the Gimmel.

> As I explained, that's because in German it's spelt with a G.  But since
> Yiddish no longer slavishly follows German spelling, that should be
> irrelevant....

This opens up the Pandora's box regarding soundex in Halacha, which I
think is most (only) germane in Hilchos Gittin.

On a Kesuba, I'm sure that they write it with a Gimmel (unless parents
specifically taught the child to spell the name with a Kuf).

The following is part of RSRH's commentary on Devarim 4:25


25 When you will beget children and children's children, and you will
have grown old in the land, and you then practice corruption and
make an image, a representation of anything, and do what is evil in
the eyes of God, your God, to anger Him;


Nothing is more detrimental to our relationship to God, both as individuals
and as a nation, than "growing old in the Promised Land"; i.e.,
our original youthful enthusiasm, engendered by the awareness that we
are God's, changes to smugness, and the land for which we once yearned
as the promised goal of our hopes and desires becomes "ours" [in that
we take it for granted], and we grow "old" and "stale" in our possession
of it.


The one God, Who is imperceptible to the senses, revealed
Himself to you at the dawn of your history. However, once your belief
fades that this God alone bears you and the entire universe, then the world
of the senses, with its supposedly sovereign realities, will assume in your
minds supreme importance. You will then fling yourselves into the arms
of heathen degeneration, which sees all of human existence - both individual
and national - merely as a product of the physical forces of the
world. You will think that these forces shape a land into the cradle of a
nation, and that the nation must worship these forces in order to be master
of its own fate.

Once this happens, it is no longer God Who blesses you in and
through His land, depending on the extent to which you subordinate your
conduct to His Will. Rather, you will consider the land itself and its physical
potentialities as the source of your success.

__________________________________________________________
I wonder what percentage of Jews living in EY take living there for granted.

YL


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On 17/08/16 16:53, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
> That?s benoni?im, not benonim.

Is there any MS of the gemara that has two yuds there?

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

From: Zev Sero [mailto:zev.s...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Zev Sero
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 3:21 AM
> On 17/08/16 16:53, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
>> That's benoni'im, not benonim.

> Is there any MS of the gemara that has two yuds there?

Not that I know of, but it's al mishkal 'orvi--orvi'im' which is somewhere
in Menahot.  I can check for you later exactly where.


[Email #2]

Sorry--I just realized that that was probably a little obscure.  What I
meant is that the word ends with a yud (benoni), so in the plural should be
with two yudim.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters 

On 17/08/16 19:55, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> This opens up the Pandora?s box regarding soundex in Halacha, which I
> think is most (only) germane in Hilchos Gittin. On a Kesuba, I?m sure
> that they write it with a Gimmel (unless parents specifically taught
> the child to spell the name with a Kuf).

Again, if you're really interested I suggest you look up the Mahari Mintz
that the Kav Noki quotes in footnote 18 on the page I sent you.  If you
just want to speculate then I will repeat for the third time that the only
reason to spell it with a gimmel is to copy the German spelling, which most
people have no interest in doing.  Yiddish words of non-Hebrew origin are
usually spelt phonetically, and that means words that end in G in German
end in kuf in Yiddish.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

I hope to find the time to see the Mahari Mintz, thanks, but my feeling
is that if you did a survey of the Zeligs in the world today, they spell
it with a Gimel. I guess your Uncle did to on his Kesuva? I just opened
up my Tshuvos Minchas Asher, and he spells it with a Gimel.
 
See also <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13609&;st=&pgnum=239>

Rav Zelig Reuven Bengis z'l also held by that previously mentioned passuk.

I did see someone claim the Hebrew word Chanun has the same meaning as
the Yiddish [Zelig] but that is news to me and I'm skeptical.

If someone has access to Bar Ilan I'd be interested to see the hits on
Zelik vs Zelig.

I always thought it was ??? because I came across "Usher Zelig" names.

Seems the plot thickens because there is also a relationship with Selig.

Google told me
    "from the Yiddish vocabulary word selig happy, fortunate (modern German
    selig), used as a vernacular translation of the Hebrew name Asher
    <https://themeaningofthename.com/asher/>"

The Oxford dictionary has been influenced by Woody Allens movie (Zelig)
[which I haven't seen] and uses another meaning but this some new meaning
from what I can tell and unrelated to the name as used by Jews.

On 17/08/16 22:32, Isaac Balbin wrote:

> I did see someone claim the Hebrew word Chanun has the same meaning
> as the Yiddish ????? but that is news to me and I?m skeptical.

Chanun and Asher basically mean the same thing.


> Seems the plot thickens because there is also a relationship with *S*elig.

What do you mean "also"?   Selig is the German spelling.  It's pronounced
"Zelik".

> The Oxford dictionary has been influenced by Woody Allens movie (Zelig)

Which was about a character with the Yiddish name.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

> On 18 Aug 2016, at 12:51 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> On 17/08/16 22:32, Isaac Balbin wrote:

>> I did see someone claim the Hebrew word Chanun has the same meaning
>> as the Yiddish ????? but that is news to me and I'm skeptical.

> Chanun and Asher basically mean the same thing.

Not sure how "basically" fits in here

>> Seems the plot thickens because there is also a relationship with  S elig.

> What do you mean "also"?   Selig is the German spelling.  It's pronounced
> "Zelig".

The end part it pronounced it at least two ways by Germans, but not with
a Kuf or Gimel sound.

Which Posuk would a German Jew use. I've heard Chof and Ish as the end
pronunciations. In Gittin you'd probably need to write both.

>> The Oxford dictionary has been influenced by Woody Allens movie (Zelig)

> Which was about a character with the Yiddish name.

But they then define Zelig as the attributes presumably of that character,
and hence it's some new meaning, although strange that Oxford adopted it.

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 01:24:47PM +1000, Isaac Balbin wrote:
:> What do you mean "also"?   Selig is the German spelling.  It's pronounced
:> "Zelig".

: The end part it pronounced it at least two ways by Germans, but not with
: a Kuf or Gimel sound.

FWIW, I usuallly hear the Yiddish pronounced "Zeligk" and by the more
Polisher and Galicianisher, "Zeiligk". (These are the same people who
make a berakhah to the "MEI-lekh ha'olam"...)

I thought it was a similar phonology pattern to "bundt" -- using the
voice for only the first part of a plosive sound.

Gotta admit, not too interested in the German original, unless the
discussion was about a /Yekke/ who was looking for the appropriate pasuq
for his name.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 18/08/16 03:55, Simi Peters wrote:
> Not that I know of, but it's al mishkal 'orvi--orvi'im' which is
> somewhere in Menahot.  I can check for you later exactly where.

> Sorry--I just realized that that was probably a little obscure.  What I
> meant is that the word ends with a yud (benoni), so in the plural should be
> with two yudim.

And yet the gemara has it with one yud, and therefore so does every
sefer that cites it, most famously, of course, the Sefer Shel Benonim,
aka "Tanya".  If it's a typo in the gemara, and a more accurate MS has
two yuds, then one can say the common usage is incorrect, because it
derives from a mistake.  But if the MSS all have one yud then we must
say "benonim" is correct.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

There?s a fascinating Ran on the Gemara in Kiddushin 31a concerning R?Yosef
being blind in which he states that R?Yosef blinded himself so as not to
have to see things outside of his 4 amot. Why wasn?t this considered chovel
(wounding self) even if done indirectly? Even if not chovel, should/may one
do something which limits his ability to do mitzvoth (any Torah ones
perhaps)?
Ramban Kiddushin 31a
??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????????? ?? ??? ???? ?????,

Kt
Joel rich


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On 18/08/16 08:31, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> Well I typed Selig into a German pronunciation site and it gave the
> two versions I listed for the g in audio form

You seem to be correct.   See the section on the "-ig" ending on this page:
http://joycep.myweb.port.ac.uk/pronounce/consong.html

So one would expect to see in Beis Shmuel and Kav Noki spellings with a
chof or a shin at the end.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis


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