Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 97

Wed, 17 Aug 2016

• 1. Re: Legions (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Legions (H Lampel)
• 3. Re: Legions ()
• 4. Re: Legions (H Lampel)
• 5. Re: Legions (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Legions (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Legions (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Legions (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: "Shuv Yom Echad..." (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Legions (Zev Sero)
• 11. plurals (Simi Peters)
• 12. Re: May one eat a salad at non-kosher restaurants while on the road? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim (Isaac Balbin)

On 17/08/16 12:38, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>  z...@sero.name writes:

>> Xivyon" (pl "xivyonim") is a modern slang word.

> I actually have no clue what this word is supposed to be, how it's
> spelled or pronounced or what it means. Maybe I'm not the only one so
> please enlighten me, thank you.

http://www.seadict.com/he/he/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9F
It seems to be a very new word.  The latest street slang.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

Melachim Beis, 6:25

ZL


On 8/17/2016 2:31 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/17/2016 2:07:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> zvilam...@gmail.com writes:
>
>     Who would imagine that my attempt to transliterate a word according
>     methodology of the poster would lead me to spelling out a street
>     slang
>     word! Again, I got the word from a posuk!
>
>     Zvi Lampel
>
> >>>>>>
> Please remind me which pasuk.  Thanks.
>
> *--Toby Katz
> t6...@aol.com*
> *..*
> *=============*
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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In a message dated 8/17/2016 10:17:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
z...@sero.name writes:

Xivyon"  (pl "xivyonim") is a modern slang word.

 
>>>>>
 
I actually have no clue what this word is supposed to be, how it's spelled  
or pronounced or what it means.  Maybe I'm not the only one so please  
enlighten me, thank you.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============




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On 8/17/2016 1:56 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 17/08/16 12:38, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>>  z...@sero.name writes:
>
>>> Xivyon" (pl "xivyonim") is a modern slang word.
>
>> I actually have no clue what this word is supposed to be, how it's
>> spelled or pronounced or what it means. Maybe I'm not the only one so
>> please enlighten me, thank you.
>
> http://www.seadict.com/he/he/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9F
> It seems to be a very new word.  The latest street slang.
>
>
Who would imagine that my attempt to transliterate a word according 
methodology of the poster would lead me to spelling out a street slang 
word! Again, I got the word from a posuk!

Zvi Lampel

On 17/08/16 14:07, H Lampel wrote:
> Who would imagine that my attempt to transliterate a word according
> methodology of the poster would lead me to spelling out a street slang
> word! Again, I got the word from a posuk!

There is no such word in the posuk.   The kesiv in the posuk is
chari-yonim.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 11:12:05AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: It seems to me that the traditional attitude is that foreign words have
: no gender, but since Hebrew grammar requires one each writer is free to
: assign them one as he pleases, with no expectation of consistency...

I think that there is generaly an attempt to match the general rule.

: the rishonim felt free to wrote of "tallethoth" or "tallethim" as they
: liked...

Actually, "Talleisim" doesn't appear until the acharonim, and only in
Ashkenaz. Bar Ilan has 47 hits for "taleiysiym" and 5 for "taleisiym"
(yuds written out to show difference in searches.) The sefarim (in
BICD hit order, not spending time sorting):
Beis Shemuel, Chasam Sofer, Penei Yehoshua, Sefas Emes, QSA, Urim,
Levushei Serad, Machatzis haSheqel, MB (and Beiur Halakhah), Sma,
AhS, Peri Megadim, Pisqei Teshuvos, SA haRav, Mas'as haMelekh, IM,
Beis Egraim, haAdmo haZaqein, Harei Besamim , Chasam Sofer, Minchas
Yitzchaq, Tzemach Tzedeq (Lub), Radal, Siach Yitzchaq, Toras Chaim,
(and without the first yud) Beis Yitzchaq, Mishneh Halakhos.

I think the earliest is the Sma, late 16th cent?

Chazal wrote tellisos or taliyos (or perhaps with a tzeirei, as you
denote), and Sepharadim never switched. It's like "Shabbosim", which is
grammatically wrong but appears in Ashkenazi at around the same time.
Probably comes from thinking in a language that has a neuter, Yiddish.

"Tallios" comes from treating the Greek "-is" suffix the way it sounds,
like a Hebrew fem diminutive "-is" suffix. But both it and tallisos are
consisten with simlah, chultzah, salmah, kutones, words for similar nouns.

See also the AhS 275:23, where he argues in favor of the spelling "petzuah
dakah" with a hei, because while the pasuq uses lshon zakhar when talking
of an "areil leiv ve'aral basar", when speaking of the eiver, the norm
is to use neqeivah, eg "giv'as ha'aralos". And he assumes that what is
true of the word "orlah" is more likely to be true of other words about
the same eiver.

(The AhS also notes that "dakah" [hei] is a fem *adjective*, while
"daka" [alef] is a masc *noun*. Citing "haGaon haChasid Maharshaz
nishmaso eiden". With all those honorifics, wondering who and why
-- he doesn't give such praise to everyone.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 17/08/16 12:36, Micha Berger wrote:
> Chazal wrote tellisos or taliyos (or perhaps with a tzeirei, as you
> denote), and Sepharadim never switched.

Where did Chazal use either of those plurals?   I couldn't find any
example of "tallesos".

Mishna Zavim 4:5, according to the Kauffman manuscript, has "t'li'os"
(tes with a shevo, lamed with a chirik molei, alef with cholom molei, sof),
and in 4:7 it has "telayos" (tes with a shevo, lamed with a komatz, yud
with a cholom molei, sof).  It also has the singular as "t'lis", (tes with
a shevo, lamed with a chirik molei, sof), whereas usually it spells it
"taleis" (tes with a patoch, lamed with a tzeireh, sof).


> "Tallios" comes from treating the Greek "-is" suffix the way it sounds,

There is no Greek "-is" suffix.  The Greek is "stole".  The final sof (:-))
was added by Hebrew.



-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 02:32:54PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Where did Chazal use either of those plurals?   I couldn't find any
: example of "tallesos".
: 
: Mishna Zavim 4:5, according to the Kauffman manuscript, has "t'li'os"
: (tes with a shevo, lamed with a chirik molei, alef with cholom molei, sof),
: and in 4:7 it has "telayos" (tes with a shevo, lamed with a komatz, yud
: with a cholom molei, sof).  It also has the singular as "t'lis", (tes with
: a shevo, lamed with a chirik molei, sof), whereas usually it spells it
: "taleis" (tes with a patoch, lamed with a tzeireh, sof).

:> "Tallios" comes from treating the Greek "-is" suffix the way it sounds,

: There is no Greek "-is" suffix.  The Greek is "stole".  The final sof (:-))
: was added by Hebrew.

The nominitive feminine signular suffix would turn "stole" to "stolis"
when the item of clothing is the subject of a sentence.

The LXX uses "stolis" (-eta-w/-perispomeni sigma) for the aderes the
king of Nineveh (of all of Ashur?) exchanges for sackcloth in Yonah 3:6.
<https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/jon/3/1/t_conc_892006>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             How wonderful it is that
mi...@aishdas.org        nobody need wait a single moment
http://www.aishdas.org   before starting to improve the world.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Anne Frank Hy"d

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 08:34:17PM -0400, Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote to Areivim
(and eVaad 1):
: R' MB:
:> To be less extreme about it... I HIGHLY recommend stopping and spending some
:> real time imagining one's own funeral. Who comes, who doesn't -- and why?
:> Who does the family get to speak? What do they say about you in hespedim?
:> How much of it is real? What would you have wanted them to say? (And how
:> much of that is real?) How can you change the course you're on
...

: Stephen Covey in his Seven Habits book suggests this as an exercise to help
: you figure out what your personal mission statement should be. He has a
: slightly less "depressive" twist - he says (from memory), imagine that
: you're at your eightieth birthday party, and everyone gives a little speech
: about you, what is it that you want them to be saying about you? 

It's also less emotional altogether; I am not sure it will leave the
same roshem and the same attachment to the resulting Mission Statement.

Speaking of Mission Statements, I suggested a tool that was used for
other purposes at Bank of America back when I worked for them. It
pushes you to think about how lower-scale decisions tie in to one's
Mission. So that it has more chance of shaping life rather than
remaining a nice platitude.

<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/hoshin-plan>:

   In a Hoshin Plan, upper management comes up with measurable goals for
   the firm. Each division head takes those goals that his division could
   help reach, and translates its items into smaller goals for his
   division. His group heads to the same to his goals, team heads...
   etc...

   This way, the individual programmer can be shown how his program, which
   people much above him in the hierarchy may never hear of, fits the
   team's goal, the group's goal, and so on all the way up to the firm's
   goals which must reflect its Mission Statement.

   Also, Hoshin Planning is an iterative process, at the end of the year,
   one can review the firm's goals against its accomplishments, and make
   more informed decisions about the goals to set for the next year.
   ...
   Enough hand-waving theory. I think an example would be illustrative.
   ...

   Subdividing this into three target ideals:
   ...
   Subdividing again:
   ...

   1. Internalizing His Will

   1.1. Daily learning
   1.2. Daily Mussar work
   1.3. Regular in depth learning

   Notice at this point I can start filling in actual tangible projects
   that I can meet by year's end. What daily learning will I start the
   year with? Should I raise the bar by year end or aim my year's growth
   elsewhere? And if so, what should the year-end goal be?
   ...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

On 17/08/16 15:24, Micha Berger wrote:
> The LXX uses "stolis" (-eta-w/-perispomeni sigma) for the aderes the
> king of Nineveh (of all of Ashur?) exchanges for sackcloth in Yonah 3:6.
> <https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/jon/3/1/t_conc_892006>

That looks like a nu to me, not a sigma.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

That's benoni'im, not benonim.

 

Kol tuv,

Simi Peters



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On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:50:45PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Q. May one eat a salad at non-kosher restaurants while on the road?

: A. Rav Belsky, zt"l ruled...

: 3. Even if the knives were clean, if they were used to cut 'sharp'
:    or spicy vegetables, they will transfer the non-kosher taste from
:    previous usage.

The same OU published in JA Winter 2012, at the tail end
of <https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/01/2013/cut-fruit-at-the-office>
by R' Eli Gersten:

    The halachot of cut salads (assuming there is no concern of insect
    infestation) would be similar to what we discussed above regarding
    fruit. Sliced onions, radishes, lemons or any other spicy fruit
    or vegetable should be avoided, unless it is clear that they were
    cut in great abundance, in which case all the problematic onions or
    lemons would be batel.

Earlier in the article, R Belsky's other concerned were dismissed given
the office context (if the fruit platter didn't come from a non-kosher
restaurant or caterer).

But I find the difference of assumpions about davar charif interesting.
REG, unlike his boss of the time, isn't worried about a davar charif if
there is none in your own dish.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle

Since asking I saw that the LR z'l did write that one should use that Posuk
you mentioned and he referred to Hilchos Gittin. Interestingly, he wrote
'until you find a more exact possuk' something that I don't understand.

I also got the same possuk without explanation from Rav Asher Zelig Weiss,
shlita, the Minchas Asher, last night. Asher and Zelig are the 'same' names
as in Yehuda Leib etc. Whilst it certainly sounded like Zelik when said, it
is most commonly written with the Gimmel. 

See page 11 here

http://www.teshura.com/teshurapdf/Tzfasman-Simpson-%20-%20Siv
an%208%2C%205772.pdf


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> On 18 Aug 2016, at 12:09 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> 
>> On 16/08/16 21:34, Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
>> What does the Minhag say, if anything, about the name Zelig (which is
>> Asher, I believe). I haven?t seen a Pasuk that starts with a Zayin
>> and ends with a Gimmel.
> 
> The LR told my uncle Zelig to say Tehillim 112:4, from which one may
> learn that the correct Yiddish spelling is with a kuf, not the German
> gimel.
> 
> (In German a G at the end of a word turns into a K sound.  It used to be
> the fashion in Yiddish to spell German-derived words as close to the
> original German spelling as one could get, presumably to show off ones
> mastery of that language.  But for the last century or so Yiddish has been
> spelt phonetically except for Hebrew-derived words (and the communists
> eliminated even that exception), so the Kuf ending is more appropriate.)
> 
> Beis Shmuel (as cited in Kav Noki) gives the first spelling as zayin ayin
> lamed yud kuf, followed by variants omitting the ayin or turning the kuf
> into a gimel, as well as suffixes such as "-man", "-in".  In footnote 18
> the Kav Noki says that Mahari Mintz has a long discussion about this and
> concludes that since neither the ayin nor the kuf/gimel substitution has
> much affect on the pronunciation the get is kosher either way.
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22275&;pgnum=152
> 
> 
> -- 
> Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
> z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
>                       words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
>                       when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis
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