Volume 34: Number 71
Sun, 19 Jun 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Simi Peters
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:47:45 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
Nope. Rut 1:22: They come into Bet Lehem at the beginning of the barley
harvest (mid-Nisan, let's say) and has to start gleaning right away or they
won't have anything to eat. Rut 2:23: Rut is in Boaz's field until the end
of the wheat harvest (say mid-Sivan. Remember, Shavuot is the beginning of
the wheat harvest.) So a conservative estimate is that they know each other
at least a month, if not 6-8 weeks by the time she goes to the goren (which
has to be at the end of the wheat harvest.)
Kol tuv,
Simi Peters
-----Original Message-----
From: Micha Berger [mailto:mi...@aishdas.org]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 5:13 PM
To: Rn Simi Peters <famil...@actcom.net.il>; The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>; Rn Toby Katz <T6...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:00:43AM +0300, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
: Haven't any of you read the second perek of megillat Rut? We're not
: talking about a coup de foudre here. We're talking about the gradual
: development of warm feelings between a much older man and a mature woman
: (40 years old, according to Hazal).
How gradual? Se'orah harvest is in Nisan (thus "Aviv") and Iyyar, chitah is
in late Iyyar through early Tammuz. So the whole story has to fit in at most
a month, when the two overlap. Add that they were harvesting long enough
that Rus showing up at this point is odd. I think it's more plausible to
picture Rus 2 through 4:12 all occuring in about a week.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507 a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:01:44 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On 6/17/2016 3:57 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Number 1 he also brings Yehuda and Tamar when referring to the same
>> gezira.
>
> Yes. So what? What do you think that proves?
That the discussion is about sexual relations and not merely sleeping in
the same bed. Having stated that Yehuda and Tamar didn't violate any
prohibition because there wasn't a gezira makes any discussion about
sleeping in the same bed to be uber-unnecessary.
Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160618/8f75d804/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:39:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] listening to governments and derabbanan
R' Marty Bluke wrote:
> If the creator rejects their legislation then it is isn't his will.
I don't know what point you were trying to make, but I'm wondering if you
considered the possibility that "lo bashamayim hee" might teach us that
their legislation IS His will, by definition.
Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160617/83bb0e16/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:35:23 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] mareh mekomo -- talmud torah rules!
I have no idea! Can anyone here provide a mareh mekomo to this
idea? (Am I even telling it over correctly? Has anyone heard this?)
Thanks!
-- Sholom
_______________________________________________
It's complex! Enjoy http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hasagatgevul.html
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Allen Gerstl
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:23:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Avodah Digest, Vol 34, Issue 70
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:03:17 -0400
R' Sholom Simon
wrote:
> 2. Same scenario,but we're talking about a school, or a
> teacher/educator. A younger rav wants to move in, because he thinks
> he can do it better. In this case we davka want to encourage
> competition, even though it might put the present teacher/school out
> of business, because in this case -- teaching our children torah --
> competition that might provide a better product is more important
> than the parnassa of who might be put out of business.
. . .
>
> I gave the above example to a few educators last weekend, and they
> all jumped out of their chairs asking me: where in the gemara is this?!?!
>
> I have no idea! Can anyone here provide a mareh mekomo to this
> idea? (Am I even telling it over correctly? Has anyone heard this?)
Please see
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hasagatgevul.html
The above issue is discussed at about footnote 22 (about three quarters of the way down in the article) and the Gemorah cited is Baba Batra 21b-22a
I recall a similar question coming before the late Rav Gedaliah Felder, the
posek of Toronto and that he told a group of us participating in a shiur
that he gave. He had ruled as above.
KT
Eliyahu
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160617/598b4ca0/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:17:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On 06/18/2016 05:01 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> On 6/17/2016 3:57 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> Number 1 he also brings Yehuda and Tamar when referring to the same gezira.
>>
>> Yes. So what? What do you think that proves?
>
> That the discussion is about sexual relations and not merely sleeping
> in the same bed. Having stated that Yehuda and Tamar didn't violate
> any prohibition because there wasn't a gezira makes any discussion
> about sleeping in the same bed to be uber-unnecessary.
Sorry, you're contradicting the very Taz you're invoking. He says
*explicitly* that the issue he's discussing is being in the same bed, not
anything else. Because as we all know it's forbidden for a man to be in
the same bed as a niddah, even if they don't touch each other. And *that*
is the question the Taz asks about Boaz and Ruth. If she was a niddah
then how could they be in the same bed? And he answers that the gezera
had not yet been made, so she wasn't a niddah. The same answer explains
how Yehuda and Tamar could have sex; the gezera that would make her a niddah
hadn't yet been enacted. The Taz in no way implies that Boaz and Ruth
did more than be in the same bed, and it's impossible to read anything
more into it.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Gershon
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:03:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] mareh mekomo -- talmud torah rules!
I believe it's a Chazon Ish.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 17, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> I remember reading a generalized essay on why learning the gemara was
> good for you, and the writer was exploring the idea (making the point)
> that the gemara explains to us values that we wouldn't have otherwise
> thought of on our own.
>
> He gave (if I'm remembering correctly) the following example:
...
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:45:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] minhag avos
Anyone interested in our perrennial about minhag avos and minhag hamaqom
would likely be interested in R' David Brofsky's
<http://www.torahmusings.com/2016/05/role-challenges-minhag-21st-century
>
Teasers:
...
Individual Customs
The Torah teaches that in addition to the obligations and prohibitions
imposed by the Torah, an individual has the ability to create personal
obligations (Vayikra 5:4) or prohibitions (Bemidbar 30:3), known as
nedarim and shevuot
...
Family Customs
As we shall see below, the Talmud teaches that one is also obligated to
observe the customs of one's locality (minhag ha-makom), even if one
leaves the place, until permanently relocating in another place. In
addition to observing the custom of one's "place," is there a
halakhically binding category of minhag avot, according to which one
would be obligated to follow the customs of one's family?
...
Local or Communal Customs
As mentioned above, the Talmud (Pesachim 50a) teaches that one is
obligated to observe the "minhag ha-makom", local custom. This
obligation, as we shall see, is incumbent upon the residents of that
place.
Where it is the custom to do work on the eve of Passover until
midday one may do [work]; where it is the custom not to do [work],
one may not do [work].
...
Minhag and Pesak Halakhah
In addition to being bound by local extra-halakhic customs, the Talmud
teaches that if it is customary in a certain place to follow a specific
halakhic view, that halakhic opinion becomes binding. For example, the
Gemara[39] relates:
...
Gut Voch!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:33:39 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] derabbanan
<<With a mitzvah derabbanan, the authority to make and obligation to
obey the lav is de'oraisa but oso av once made is not. After all, HQBH
said lo sasur, not lo sevasheil owf bechalav >>
The question is why safeq derabannan is different than safe deoraisa and
other differences between
biblical and rabbinic laws. Id rabbinic laws are lo tasur then chicken and
milk should have the laws of a deoraisa.
<<What I was saying in my earlier post is that I think the MC rules out
any first-order taamei hamitzvos for dinim derabbanan, and they are all
to protect / help implement de'oraisos which have real te'amim. >>
what about chanuka, purim, hallel, netilyat yadaim etc whcih are not to
protect deoraisa laws.
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160619/048e0a32/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:55 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 7:27 AM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> In one of my books it says that from the time Rus came to Boaz's field
> until the night in the goren it was three months. It had to be three
> months because that's the minimum time from the time a woman is megayer
> until she can get married. (Sorry I don't remember source.)
>
>
>
> *--Toby Katzt6...@aol.com <t6...@aol.com>..*
>
That raises a whole other set of questions, namely when and how was Rus
misgayer? Rashi at the beginning of the Megila claims that Mahlon and
Kilyon married non-Jewish women and Rus was only megayer later. Others
claim that it can't be that Mahlon and Kilyon married non-Jewish women so
it must be that they were megayer them. The Bach for example states that
Rus was megayer to marry at the beginning and then later was megayer a
second time lshem shamayim. R' Shternbuch in Moadim Uzmanim claims that
they were minors and therefore when they came of age could be moche and
therefore Rus was megayer a second time (ayen sham).
Therefore it is pretty difficult to tie the 3 months into the geirus.
In any case the din of waiting 3 months is a din drabbanan of havchana,
that you should be able to tell the difference between a child conceived as
a non-Jew versus a child conceived as a Jew. For all we know this din
drabbanan had not yet been formulated in the days of Boaz and therefore is
irrelevant.
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160619/e5a5bbef/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: via Avodah
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 00:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
In a message dated 6/18/2016 3:48:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
famil...@actcom.net.il writes:
So a conservative estimate is that they know each other
at least a month, if not 6-8 weeks by the time she goes to the goren (which
has to be at the end of the wheat harvest.)
Kol tuv,
Simi Peters
>>>>
In one of my books it says that from the time Rus came to Boaz's field
until the night in the goren it was three months. It had to be three months
because that's the minimum time from the time a woman is megayer until she
can get married. (Sorry I don't remember source.)
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160619/f9a5f82d/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:16:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth
On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 10:47:45PM +0300, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
: Nope. Rut 1:22: They come into Bet Lehem at the beginning of the barley
: harvest (mid-Nisan, let's say) and has to start gleaning right away or they
: won't have anything to eat. Rut 2:23: Rut is in Boaz's field until the end
: of the wheat harvest (say mid-Sivan. Remember, Shavuot is the beginning of
: the wheat harvest.) ...
I thought "ad kelos se'ir hase'orim uqetzir hachitim" referred to the
end of the overlap time. Which is how I got such a tight estimate. You
appear to be reading it "until the end of the barley harvest, [and then
beyond, until] the end of the wheat harvest." Which, despite needing
the bracketed insertion, is quite plausible. But not the assumption I
had been working with.
In any case, even in a matter of months, we would still be talking about
romantic love. To my mind, any couple in love before the love that that
grows out of building a life together are experiencing romantic love.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 12:27:47AM -0400, RnTK <T6...@aol.com> wrote:
: In one of my books it says that from the time Rus came to Boaz's field
: until the night in the goren it was three months. It had to be three months
: because that's the minimum time from the time a woman is megayer until she
: can get married. (Sorry I don't remember source.)
The harvest season isn't three months, even according to RnSP's
understanding of the pasuq.
And that taqanah derabbanan almost certainly didn't exist yet.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Bechinas haOlam
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:07:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] derabbanan
On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 01:33:39PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> With a mitzvah derabbanan, the authority to make and obligation to
:> obey the lav is de'oraisa but oso av once made is not. After all, HQBH
:> said lo sasur, not lo sevasheil owf bechalav
:
: The question is why safeq derabannan is different than safe deoraisa and
: other differences between
: biblical and rabbinic laws. Id rabbinic laws are lo tasur then chicken and
: milk should have the laws of a deoraisa.
At this point our topic is broader than that. We are back one step at
whether lo sasur is a derashah or an asmachta. Yes, if every derabbanan
is "lo sasur", then we need to ask about safeiq derabbanan lequlah. But
if not, what is the source of their authority-- REWasserman Hy"d basically
says "lamah li qera, sevara hi?" Which then raised the question of whether
following chakhamim actually is living according to the design of the
world, as REW holds, or
:> What I was saying in my earlier post is that I think the MC rules out
:> any first-order taamei hamitzvos for dinim derabbanan, and they are all
:> to protect / help implement de'oraisos which have real te'amim.
: what about chanuka, purim, hallel, netilyat yadaim etc whcih are not to
: protect deoraisa laws.
Chanukah, Purim, and Hallel do "help implement de'oraisos". We are
obligated to acknowledge and celebrate nissim and yeshu'os; chazal
"merely" coined standard ways to do so.
Netilas yadayim *is* there to protect deOraisos. Or at least was, back
before we gave up an taharah. The whole notion that by default hands
are tamei was a gezeirah, not a taqanah.
In neither case do we need to assert that there was some metaphysical
danger to avoid or metaphysical benefit we would have missed that the
Torah hadn't already forced us to take into account.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Eliot
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:37:42 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] derabbanan
<<REWasserman Hy"d basically says "lamah li qera, sevara hi?" >>
which again seems to make every derabanan a deoraisa
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20160619/9aafb9ca/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)