Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 69

Thu, 16 Jun 2016

• 1. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth ()
• 2. Re: listening to governments and derabbanan (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: ohr lagoyim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Ilana Elzufon)
• 6. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Simi Peters)
• 7. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Boaz's nisayon with Ruth (Marty Bluke)
• 10. gemara narrative (Rich, Joel)

 

[1]  From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: Boaz's nisayon with  Ruth


: And therefore what? According to Chazal Boaz was the Gadol  Hador and he
: was also an old man. Why would a strange woman giving him a  sign that she
: wanted to sleep with him tempt him? Why would that be called  a bigger
: nisayon then Yosef faced? [--R' Marty Bluke]

I took Chazal  to mean the story as I learned it in school was bowdlerized.
I suspect that  "vegilis margelosav" is sagi nahor. Eg, why "margelosav"
and not  "raglosav?"


Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         



[2]




From:  Simi Peters via Avodah _avodah@lists.aishdas.org_ 
(mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org) 

Subject:  [Avodah] boaz and rut

Boaz knew, liked, and even admired Rut, fully  accepted the fact that she 
was Jewish and felt protective toward  her. .... It would have been easy for 
him to see Rut's behavior as the  sexual invitation of a lonely, socially 
isolated woman, whose feelings he  did not want to hurt. ....Boaz could easily 
have justified availing himself  of the 'invitation' instead of waiting to 
do things through bet din the next  day. I think that adds up to a fairly 
decent nisayon.



Kol  tuv,

Simi  Peters






[3]

From:  Ilana Elzufon via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Boaz's  nisayon with Ruth



>>I am having a hard time understanding this nisayon. Imagine  if you
woke up and found a beautiful woman (full clothed in a tznius  manner) lying
at your feet. Would you have any hava amina to sleep with  her?<<[--R' 
Marty Bluke]


As RnSP points out (in a different  subject line), they were certainly not
strangers. I will confess that I  have always imagined that, over the weeks
of encountering each other  repeatedly during the course of the harvest
season, the two may well have  developed feelings for each other. ....
So what is the nisayon? He woke up  and found the woman with whom he was
deeply in love...lying at his feet.  And she asked him to "spread his
wings" over her. Would it not have been  the most natural thing in the world
to invite her to come under the blanket  next to him, rather than staying at
his feet, and to let one thing lead to  another?

Ilana




>>>>>
 
[1] Over the years I too have wondered about the use of the  word 
"margalosav" instead of "raglosav" and came to a similar conclusion to  RMB's, that 
is, since "margolios" are pearls, the pasuk might be talking about  the 
family jewels.  However I did not assume that Rus /actually/ uncovered  Boaz in 
that way but rather, that uncovering his feet was a way  to hint to him that 
he should uncover something else -- not that  night, but in due course.  
That he should act as her goel, that he  should marry her and have children 
with her.
 
[2] Yes, Boaz liked her and admired her but when Chazal say that the  
evening was a great nisayon for him they are clearly saying that on that  night, 
he was attracted to her and had the desire and opportunity to  sin.  The 
nisayon was much more than "he didn't want to hurt her  feelings."  And she 
wasn't so "lonely and socially isolated"-- she could  easily have married a 
much younger man, as Boaz says when he speaks of her great  chessed in 
approaching him instead of going after the  bachurim.
 
[3] The idea that he was "deeply in love with her" is a stretch but yes, he 
 clearly had feelings for her.  Until that night I would say his feelings  
were mainly protective and paternal -- he always called her "biti, my 
daughter"  -- but that night, under those circumstances, a yetzer hara was aroused 
that  does not seem to have been there before.  After all, months had 
passed and  he had not suggested marriage, which was the very reason Naomi 
resorted to such  an unconventional strategy.
 
[4] I want to add one more point, which is that not all old men are the  
same.  R' MBluke started this thread by asking why this should be such a  
nisayon when Boaz was "the Gadol Hador and he was also an old man."  That  the 
Gadol Hador could be overtaken by illicit desires we already know from  many 
previous incidents involving Yehuda, Shimshon, Dovid Hamelech and  others.  
As for old men, many lose desire as well as the ability to act on  their 
desires, but we know that this was not the case with Boaz from the very  fact 
that he did indeed father a child with Rus.  
 
 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 08:30:47AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> Doesn't the gemara explicitly say that indeed, every derabbanan *is*
:> a de'oraisa to justify saying "asher qidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu"
:> on the qiyum of a derabbanan? (Shabbos 23a)

: The Ramban quotes the Gemara Berachos 19b that "kol mili drabbanan alav dlo
: tasur asmichinu" meaning that the application to dinim d'rabbanan is only
: an asmachta.

And later:
:>    1- Ramban (on Seifer haMizvos, shoresh 1): The same Rabbis who made
:>    the rabbinic prohibitions and duties made them only applicable in the
:>    case of certainty. They desired to make a clear distinction between
:>    Torah and rabbinic law.

: This is not the opinion of the Ramban. The Ramban quotes such a sevara and
: then dismisses it saying "ayn eilu devarim hagunim". This is actually the
: opinion of the Ran.

What I see is the Ramban (Hasagah, Seifer haMitzvos, shores 1) telling
you why the pasuq "lo sasur" is not an azahara, and not a complete
denial that the power to make a derabanan is from the Torah. As the
Ramban puts it,
    shelav zeh 'delo sasur' hu keshe'ar halavin shelaTorah
    aval divreihem al zeh halav halav asmekhinhu samakh be'alma
    lo sheyehei azhara kelal be'oso lav

As I see it, the Ramban is saying that lo sasur gives them the power
to legislate, but the specific legislation (oso lav) is only someikh on
the pasuq.

Which would keep derabbanan's out of the list of 613, but still mean that
following them is a qiyum of lo sasur. A way to have the "asher qidishanu
bemitzvosav" cake and eat it too.

Ad kan discussing the Ramban. Jumping back to discuss R MS haKohein:
:>: R' Meir Simcha in the Meshech Chochma on Shoftim has a fascinating
:>: explanation of the Rambam. He says that every din d'rabbanan is not
:>: necessarily a fulfillment of the will of Hashem and in fact may not be what
:>: Hashem wants. The proof is that the Rambam paskens based on the Gemara that
:>: a later greater Beis Din can be mevatel a takana of an earlier Beis Din. If
:>: every takana was the will of Hashem how could that be? ....
...
:                                         His point is that we as human
: beings don't know Hashems will and therefore we can make mistakes when
: making takanos. Because of that there is no intrinsic value in doing the
: act that the Chachamim were mesaken, rather the value is in listening to
: their words. Therefore if there is a safek there is no need to do the
: action.

I think he switches your cart and horse -- "efshar de'eiono misqabel el
Retzon haBorei". Not that they miss His Will, but the Creator rejects
their legislation. Or, ein hatzibur yalhol la'amod bam, which is the
category all the MC's examples demonstrate.

In either case, he talks about the difference between a deOraisa, where
one might ch"v eat chazir because of a safeiq and a derabbanan where,
as you put it "the value is in listening to their words". It is from
that part of the MC I get the idea that he is distinguishing deOraisos
as having ontologies we need to avoid or experience, and derabbanans
which are all about following orders for pragmatic reasons.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 11:23am CEST, R Arie Folger quoted Yechezqeil
ben Buzi haKohein (44:23):
: Ve-et 'ami yoru bein qodesh le'hol uvein tame letahor yodi'um.
: "And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and
: profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean"


RAYK (MiDevar Shor 16) writes that this is why we're called "beni bekhori
Yisrael". The kehunah of the bekhor, to serve as either shaliach haMaqom
to the family, or their shaliach before Him. See <http://j.mp/1YqsOAF> or
<https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/????_???_??>.

Also see Mal'akhei 2:7, for a similar definition of kehunah (WRT benei
Aharon): Ki sifsei khohein yishmeru da'as veSorah yebaqshu mipihu....

RAYK's point is much like the LR's words when launchind the Noachide
campaign:
    A particular task [is] to educate and to encourage the observance
    of the Seven Laws among all people. The religious tolerance of
    today, and the trend towards greater freedom, gives us the unique
    opportunity to enhance widespread observance of these laws. For
    it is by adherence to these laws, which are in and of themselves
    an expression of Divine goodness, that all humankind is united and
    bound by a common moral responsibility to our Creator. This unity
    promotes peace and harmony among all people, thereby achieving the
    ultimate good. As the Psalmist said: "How good and how pleasant it
    is for brothers to dwell together in unity."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> So what is the nisayon? He woke up and found the woman with whom he was
> deeply in love (had he admitted this to himself already? did he realize it
> only at that moment?) lying at his feet. And she asked him to "spread his
> wings" over her. Would it not have been the most natural thing in the world
> to invite her to come under the blanket next to him, rather than staying at
> his feet, and to let one thing lead to another?

The idea that Boaz was deeply in love with Ruth is probably a case of us
projecting our Western sensibilities and feelings of romantic love onto a
situation where they almost certainly don't apply.

RMBluke: The idea that Boaz was deeply in love with Ruth is probably a case
of us projecting our Western sensibilities and feelings of romantic love
onto a situation where they almost certainly don't apply.

I agree that "deeply in love" is probably be too much - but I think it is
quite plausible that he was falling in love with her, whether he realized
it before that night or not. It certainly makes it much easier to
understand the nisayon if that is the case. And even if romantic love is
much more emphasized in our time and culture than many others, I find it
unlikely that it did not exist at all in Biblical times.


>
>
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I said that ?Boaz knew, liked, and even admired Rut, fully accepted the
fact that she was Jewish and felt protective toward her.?  This is not a
claim that he was ?in love with her? (nusah 21st century) and is not the
projection of a Western conception of Romantic love (nusah 14th century).
Men and women have always been attracted to each other and loved each other
which has, b?H, ensured the survival of the human race.  Yitzhak avinu is
described as loving Rivka imenu (after marriage); Yaakov avinu is described
as loving Rahel imenu and Mikhal bat Shaul is described as loving David (in
both cases before marriage.  What is being described is an emotion, not an
action.) And while Shir haShirim is allegorical, the allegory describes a
profound, intense and sensual love.

 

Boaz was a tsaddik, but prior to the establishment of the issur of yihud
with a penuya, relations with an unmarried, ritually pure woman might not
have carried the same halakhic or social stigma as it does today. Hazal do
not find strange the idea that an old man might have sexual feeling and
reactions.  (Consider their description of David and Avishag in the
presence of Batsheva.)	

 

Kol tuv, 

Simi Peters

From: Marty Bluke [mailto:marty.bl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 2:40 PM
To: Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>; Simi Peters <famil...@actcom.net.il>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boaz's nisayon with Ruth

 

 

 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com <mailto:ilanaso...@gmail.com> > wrote:

RMBluke: I am having a hard time understanding this nisayon. Imagine if you
woke up and found a beautiful woman (full clothed in a tznius manner) lying
at your feet. Would you have any hava amina to sleep with her? 

 

As RnSP points out (in a different subject line), they were certainly not
strangers. I will confess that I have always imagined that, over the weeks
of encountering each other repeatedly during the course of the harvest
season, the two may well have developed feelings for each other. From the
very beginning, we see that Boaz was caring, helpful, and protective
towards Rut - feelings that can easily develop in a romantic direction. His
actions could also easily have led her to be attracted to him.

 

Without Naomi's intervention, neither would have acted on these feelings.
Rut would certainly not have the temerity to initiate a relationship with a
man of Boaz's status - it would probably have been improper for her to do
so with any man. And what does Boaz say when he discovers Rut? He praises
her chessed for not going after the younger men. He seems to have assumed
that such a beautiful and relatively young woman, of such fine character,
must have no shortage of admirers in her own age group, and that she would
and should prefer them to an older man like himself.

 

So what is the nisayon? He woke up and found the woman with whom he was
deeply in love (had he admitted this to himself already? did he realize it
only at that moment?) lying at his feet. And she asked him to "spread his
wings" over her. Would it not have been the most natural thing in the world
to invite her to come under the blanket next to him, rather than staying at
his feet, and to let one thing lead to another?

 

Ilana

 

The idea that Boaz was deeply in love with Ruth is probably a case of us
projecting our Western sensibilities and feelings of romantic love onto a
situation where they almost certainly don't apply. 

 



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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 02:39:55PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: The idea that Boaz was deeply in love with Ruth is probably a case of us
: projecting our Western sensibilities and feelings of romantic love onto a
: situation where they almost certainly don't apply.

I dunno... Yitzchaq meets Rivqa, she literally falls for him. They
try pulling the sister-wife thing, but they blow it because "Yitzchak
metzacheik es Rivqa ishto".

When it comes to Yaaqov and Rachel, we find even more explicit description
of a couple who who romantically in love. "Vaya'avod Yaaqov beRacheil
7 shanim, vayihyu be'einav kayamim achachdim be'ahavaso osahh".

I think that academic claims of how much the human condition has changed
over the millennia need to be checked against our belief that while
TSBP evolves over time, halakhah does its redemptive work for generation
after generation.

Yes, many things have changed. The industrialist who relates to time
with the linear instruments of a clock and day planner experiences
something very different than the farmer's cycles of day and night and of
annual seasons. Both of which are very different than the post-telecom
experience of time which is dominated by events to respond to (phone,
email, text/IM), more so than a preplanned schedule. But far more stays
the same than would make for good PhD theses.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 08:58:34AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: The Rambam writes at the beginning of hilchos ishus that after matan torah
: any biah that is not l'shem kiddushin is an issur d'oraysa and he would get
: malkos. That halacha was certainly around at the time of Boaz.

Only "certainly" if Boaz held like the Rambam rather than the Ramban.

A ra'ayah for the Ramban is Yevamos 61a, which says that zenus (eg WRT
marrying a kohein) is relations between two people who are not allowed
to marry. Not all two people who aren't actually married.

The Rambam (lav 355) cites the Sifra, Qedoshim 77. However, the Sifra
inside distinguishes between being mechalel one's daughter lesheim zenus
vs not lesheim zenus. So I don't get it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:29 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I dunno... Yitzchaq meets Rivqa, she literally falls for him. They
> try pulling the sister-wife thing, but they blow it because "Yitzchak
> metzacheik es Rivqa ishto".

Truthfully, I never understood that whole story. Avraham was very well
known generally and certainly by Avimelech and it was common knowledge that
Avraham had a "miracle" son at the age of 100 but no daughters. How could
this ruse have possible worked?  Additionally, how could Yitzchak and Rivka
have been meshamesh bayom where someone could see them?

In any case, with Rivka it doesn't necessarily mean romantic love. In fact,
the common derasha about Yitzchak and Rivka is that the love only came
after he married her and brought her into his tent.


On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Simi Peters <famil...@actcom.net.il>
wrote:
> Boaz was a tsaddik, but prior to the establishment of the issur of yihud
> with a penuya, relations with an unmarried, ritually pure woman might not
> have carried the same halakhic or social stigma as it does today.

The Rambam writes at the beginning of hilchos ishus that after matan torah
any biah that is not l'shem kiddushin is an issur d'oraysa and he would get
malkos. That halacha was certainly around at the time of Boaz.


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 08:58:34AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
>: The Rambam writes at the beginning of hilchos ishus that after matan torah
>: any biah that is not l'shem kiddushin is an issur d'oraysa and he would get
>: malkos. That halacha was certainly around at the time of Boaz.

> Only "certainly" if Boaz held like the Rambam rather than the Ramban.

Even the Ramban who says that there is no technical issur d'oraysa,
would probably declare this kind of behaviour is naval birshus hatorah
and certainly not what the Gadol Hador should be doing.

When you are learning gemara and you come to a give and take where
the hava amina seems strange (e.g. maakot 14a where the gemaras first
assumes the rabbanan learn a din from lchaleik yatzah and ask where
does R' Yitzchak learn it from. Gemara answers from a different pasuk
and then asks why don't the rabbanan learn it from there. the answer
is ein haci nami?! -- so why record the whole misattribution of reason,
and how did they know/not know)

KT
Joel Rich


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