Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 64

Mon, 06 Jun 2016

• 1. ohr lagoyim (saul newman)
• 2. listening to governments and derabbanan (Eli Turkel)
• 3. ohr lagoyim (Sholom Simon)
• 4. Re: ohr lagoyim ()
• 5. Re: ohr lagoyim (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: how many tochachas (Micha Berger)
• 7. Laining difference between Israel and Chutz Laaretz. (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: how many tochachas (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: ohr lagoyim (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Laining difference between Israel and Chutz Laaretz. (Micha Berger)
• 11. Ohr lagoyim (M Cohen)
• 12. Re: Ohr lagoyim (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: ohr lagoyim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Does a Bat Mitzva girl continue counting during Sefira (Saul Mashbaum)
• 15. Re: ohr lagoyim (Lisa Liel)

 >>>>It shows we or
they need work in this area.

---- meila i can understand blaming us . but to blame 'they' , the goyim is
saying they refused to hear the gospel.....

>>>>>>If the machine generating the light is working
improperly

---- or properly working light,  just that the potential buyers threw it in
garbage
I suppose the answer is that pre-messianic times [ie golus] is our fault .
so WE created the tyrranical Outsider who oppressed us and refused to
listen to our message...
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I am responding on avodah to some remarks on arevim
> So if the health minister happens to be ... anti-vaxx ..., suddenly the
> halacha has to turn around?! And after the next election it turns around
> again?! Look at what happened in Israel two years ago, when German
> was health minister and decided to end fluoridation. Now Litzman is
> restarting it. Was everyone supposed to change their minds in those two
> years, or accept that the truth changed, just because the government did?!

This completely misunderstands the role of government rules. Besides
dina de-malchuta we learn that if not for the government we would live
in anarchy everyone decides for themselves what is best.

Medieval philosophers and commentaries debate why one must listen
to the government. Opinions range from divine rights to the king can
kick you out to more modern theories that the citizens accept the rule
by staying in the country and especially by accepting privileges from
the government like the use of roads, army, schools etc. In consonance
with the Mishna we listen to the government because without it there is
chaos. The government specifies safety laws, traffic laws, tries thieves
and murderers, has laws against sexual and drug abuse There is nothing
in these theories about the government always being right.

Obviously, governments are made from people who make decisions and
different countries have different laws some more liberal and some more
conservative. However in each country one is required by HALACHA to follow
the government regulations (as long as they don't conflict with halacha).
If the regulations change over time then yes the observant Jew much change
his behavior just as he changes when doctors change their views or when
a bet din changes their views. When batei dinim in different locales
disagree then each community must follow their local bet din. Pointing
out that a different bet din disagrees doesn;t matter one must follow
the local bet din.

Bottom line as the Arukh Hashulchan points out in many areas the
government regulations are the substitute for the bet din who are not
knowledgeable to set standards in health, safety and other such areas.

-------------------------


Avraham on logic. The topic that he just began is the requirement to
listen to rabbis. Rambam relies on the pasuk "lo tassur". Ramban disagrees
and says that if so then every derabban becomes a de-oraita. RMA points
out that the more difficult shita is actually the Ramban. He offers no
alternative to the Rambam.

Some possibilites that have been offered include

1) There is a mitzvat aseh to listen to the rabbis

2) It is based on logic similar to above, otherwise it leads to chaos
He went into a side discussion of the status of sevara (deoraita?) and
a Rav Akiva Eiger.

3) The rabbis are smarter than us and so we should listen.

RMA points out that there is an intrinsic problem. If the reason is too
good then we are back to question that it becomes a deoraita. If it is
weak then listening to the rabbis becomes wishy-washy, ie if circumstances
change, if one disagrees with their reasoning etc.

-- 
Eli Turkel

R S Newman has posed the question in a provocatively interesting way.  Thanks!

Musing out loud, is it possible that the concept applies to 
Torah/Torah values in addition to its people?

For example, doesn't the Rambam offer that Xtianity and Islam, both 
"offshoots", if you will, of Judaism, have moved the world's 
population (at least partially, in the case of some part of Xtianity) 
away from A"Z?

As a second data point, R Jonathan Sacks often points out how many of 
the world's ideas are rooted in Torah  (e.g., equality (even the 
King!) before the law,  which, in turn, gave rise to (because it was 
a necessary pre-condition of) democracy, etc.).

-- Sholom

ohr lagoyim
 
when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation  could it
practically have been implied?
was it ever taken  seriously?


....so i guess i don't get when this concept was meant to  be relevant,
practically.
 


>>>>
 
 
It began long before Chazal, in the time of Avraham Avinu.  (The  concept, 
not the exact words.)  And Yitzchak and Yakov.  "All the  nations of the 
world will be blessed through you."
 
For the incredible moral and intellectual influence the Jews have had on  
the rest of the world  throughout history, see Thomas Cahill's book, *The  
Gifts of the Jews* and read Dennis Prager's review of the book in *First 
Things*  which summarizes the book's main points.
 
 
http://www.firstthings.com/article/1998/11/002-cahills-gift
 
Hirsch in the introduction to his commentary on Tehillim shows that Dovid  
Hamelech meant for Sefer Tehillim to be used as a book of prayer by all the  
nations of the world and indeed, this has come to pass, with Tehillim 
having  been translated into practically every language in the world.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 07:33:30AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: I suppose the answer is that pre-messianic times [ie golus] is our fault .
: so WE created the tyrranical Outsider who oppressed us and refused to
: listen to our message...

As R' Sholom and Rn Toby noted, it's not that we haven't brought light
to the world during galus. I would say that it's that the process is
so slow we do not notice it when looking in the timespan of a single
lifespan. We're watching the hour-hand and complaining it doesn't move.

The issue Lisa and I were discussing is whether "le'or goyim" implies
a chiyuv on our part, and if not, does the chiyuv people read into those
words exist anyway?

RBW assumes that it does, and therefore if we are unhappy with the rate
of progress, we should asume the light needs fixing, not that its
users are neglecting it.

But I have no doubt that our influence has had a central role in the
progress of civilization. Whether or not we consciously worked at it.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:42:02AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: my wife tells me she heard a lecture in which they list 3 tochachas---- the
: two plus devarim.  do people normally count that there are 3?

The middle of VeHayah im Shamoa?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

basically the answer has to do with the parshiot before shavuot.
The major question is why does chul wait until matos-masei and not earlier
For a detailed answer see

http://rabbikaganoff.com/

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 06/03/2016 04:22 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:42:02AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> : my wife tells me she heard a lecture in which they list 3 tochachas---- the
> : two plus devarim.  do people normally count that there are 3?
>
> The middle of VeHayah im Shamoa?

The first 11 chapters of Devarim is a tochacha.  But it's not curses, which
is what we usually associate with the term.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 06/03/2016 04:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The issue Lisa and I were discussing is whether "le'or goyim" implies
> a chiyuv on our part, and if not, does the chiyuv people read into those
> words exist anyway?

In support of the "no" side, the main example given is "`amim har yikra'u";
that people will come to EY to do business with Shevet Zevulun, and while
they're there they will do some touristing and visit Y'm to see what is to
be seen, and be so impressed that they'll accept the 7 mitzvos and bring
zivchei tzedek.   So there's no missionising, no outreach, just us being
ourselves, and those who are already prone to be attracted to the light
will be attracted.
  

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 09:20:35PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: basically the answer has to do with the parshiot before shavuot.
: The major question is why does chul wait until matos-masei and not earlier
: For a detailed answer see
: http://rabbikaganoff.com/

With all due respect to RYK, what I said earlier is historically correct:
the currently leining system was designed by geonim for Bavel. So
chu"l leining for the 8th of Pesach instead of Acharei-Mos was correct
scheduling. It is Israel that got ahead.

So the major question is why does EY wait until Matos Mas'ei to split
a double parashah and fall back into sync with the design?

And that's easy -- because all the double parshios before then are
already split!

If you want to ask why the ge'onim have us splitting all the double
parshios, yes, that has to do with timing the tochachah to be 2 Shabbasos
before Shavuos. But that's not a why we didn't catch up to EY yet thing --
catching up was never a goal.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           good for all mankind?

> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 12:15 PM, saul newman wrote:
>> when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation could it
practically have been implied?
>> was it ever taken seriously?

There are multiple r Avigdor miller shiurim where he demonstrates clearly
that Jewish ideas have slowly entered the goyishe (western) world thru us.

Where Jews did not live, our teachings have yet to have the same effect (far
east, Africa, etc)

This is also the message of r Aryeh Kaplan in 'If You Were God'
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48970646.html

See r ken Spiro's 12 part series world perfect where he demonstrates that
this has occurred
http://www.aish.com/sem/wp/

Numerous sefarim say that that galus occurred bc we were not on a sufficient
madraidga to be world educators from our home in Israel, so we had to be
dispersed amongst the nations so that we c be closer to them (so that they c
learn from us)

Its true we spent most of our history just trying to survive, but by osmosis
(and more) our ideas and ideals have molded and raised the level of
humanity as a whole

Mordechai Cohen




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On 06/05/2016 08:45 AM, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
> Numerous sefarim say that that galus occurred bc we were not on a sufficient
> madraidga to be world educators from our home in Israel, so we had to be
> dispersed amongst the nations so that we c be closer to them (so that they c
> learn from us)

The gemara says that "Israel was only exiled among the nations so that
converts should be added to them".   Note the passive form.  Even in galus
we were not expected to actively recruit gerim, but rather to live among
the nations so that those who are naturally attracted to our way of life
would be able to find us and avail themselves of an option that they
would otherwise never know about.   Not even a symbolic hishtadlus is
expected of us; we are simply to do our own thing, but in a place where
potential gerim will see us.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 11:15:56PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 06/03/2016 04:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >The issue Lisa and I were discussing is whether "le'or goyim" implies
: >a chiyuv on our part, and if not, does the chiyuv people read into those
: >words exist anyway?
: 
: In support of the "no" side, the main example given is "`amim har yikra'u";
...

The exitence of an influence that does not require our conscious effort
and wouldn't be an imperative does not speak to the exitence of an
imperative to put in conscious effort as well.

My earlier comment in reply to Lisa was that even if le'or goyim were a
statement of fact rather than an imperative, wouldn't charged with being
a malekhes kohanim imply that imperative anyway?

So, nu, our influence via daughter religions and just being there to
shape host cultures may have fulfilled the prophecy of le'or goyim
either way. Yet we still have to act in a way that brings others to
avodas Hashem.


Hevei mitalmidav shel Aharon ... uheiv es haberios umeqarvan laTorah.

[Rabbi Chanina b Dosa] haya omer: Kol sheruach haberios nochah heimenu,
hurach haMaqom nochah heimenu.

Similarly R Meir in the beraisa (Avos 6:6). Etc...

It seems that there is much to be said about our acting in a way that
is attractive to all berios, Jew and non-Jew alike. Regardless of peshat
in "le'or goyim".


There is also a possibility that le'or goyim is a messianic prophecy. Like


And the same questions could be raised with "Halkhu amim rabim... Ki
miTzion teitzei Sorah..." De facto, it will? We must act in a way that
causes Torah to be spread from Zion? Now? Le'asid lavo?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           good for all mankind?

In discussing the case of a girl who became bat mitzva in the course
of sefira, it is instructive to consider the analysis of Rav Yosef Dov
Halevi Soloveitchik (the Rov) of the Bahag's opinion on sefirat haomer
(see Harrei Kedem Volume II chapter 112).

The position of the Bahag is that one who does not count one day of
omer does not make a bracha on subsequent days

The Rov did not accept the widely-held opinion that the Bahag holds
that there is one mitzva to count all 49 days. Rather, each day of
sefira is a separate mitzva. However, on each day, there is a "din
mesuyam", a particular law that the previous days have been counted.
If this is not true, one is counting not sequentially, but with
skipping, not the count the Torah specified. Skipping a day
invalidates each and every subsequent day, not the totality of the
count.

As is well known, according to the Bahag, one who forgot to count at
night counts during the day without a bracha, but may subsequently
count with a bracha.

The Rov asked: according to the Bahag, does one fulfill the mitzva of
sefira during the day? If so, why doesn't one make a bracha? If not,
why may one continue counting subsequent days with a bracha?

The Rov held that the Bahag held like Rabbeinu Tam that the mitzva of
sefira is only at night, and when one counts during the day he does
not fulfill the mitzva of sefira at all. However, when counting during
the day, one does a "maase sefira", an act of counting, even if he
does not perform "mitzvat sefira". This maase sefira makes his
counting connected, and he can continue counting with a bracha,
although there was one day on which he did not perform the mitzva of
sefira at all.

According to the Bahag, one who forgot to count the 49th night gains
nothing by counting the following day, since one does not fulfill the
mitzva of sefira at all during the day. Counting during the day is not
in itself a mitzva, but only helps to enable counting subsequent days
with a bracha.

Even if one were to say that a katan (minor) does not have a chiyyuv
(obligation) to count sefira, and a katan that counts has not
performed the mitzva of sefira, nevertheless his count is a "maase
sefira", an act of counting. In this way the count of a minor is
similar to counting during the day; it is a masse sefira which enables
one to continue counting with a bracha, even when the katan becomes a
gadol.

Clearly, this applies to a minor girl exactly as it does to a minor boy.

The Rov noted that even if one were to know that he will not be able
to count every night until Shavuot, he counts every night with a
bracha until he misses, since each night's count is a separate mitzva,
and skipping a future night will not invalidate a previous night's
mitzva.

Saul Mashbaum

On 6/5/2016 10:46 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 11:15:56PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : On 06/03/2016 04:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : >The issue Lisa and I were discussing is whether "le'or goyim" implies
> : >a chiyuv on our part, and if not, does the chiyuv people read into those
> : >words exist anyway?
> :
> : In support of the "no" side, the main example given is "`amim har yikra'u";
> ...
>
> The exitence of an influence that does not require our conscious effort
> and wouldn't be an imperative does not speak to the exitence of an
> imperative to put in conscious effort as well.
>
> My earlier comment in reply to Lisa was that even if le'or goyim were a
> statement of fact rather than an imperative, wouldn't charged with being
> a malekhes kohanim imply that imperative anyway?
And I think the answer is "no".

> So, nu, our influence via daughter religions and just being there to
> shape host cultures may have fulfilled the prophecy of le'or goyim
> either way. Yet we still have to act in a way that brings others to
> avodas Hashem.
Or rather, Hashem is telling us that this will be the end result.  I 
don't see any indication of an obligation on our part towards the 
nations of the world.

> Hevei mitalmidav shel Aharon ... uheiv es haberios umeqarvan laTorah.
Good mussar, but also not a chiyuv.

> [Rabbi Chanina b Dosa] haya omer: Kol sheruach haberios nochah heimenu,
> hurach haMaqom nochah heimenu.
And again, no chiyuv here.
>
> Similarly R Meir in the beraisa (Avos 6:6). Etc...
>
> It seems that there is much to be said about our acting in a way that
> is attractive to all berios, Jew and non-Jew alike. Regardless of peshat
> in "le'or goyim".
No one is saying it isn't a good thing.  But we prioritize, and whether 
a thing is an obligation or not goes into the calculation of those 
priorities.  This isn't an obligation.  To paraphrase someone, it's 
descriptive; not prescriptive.

Lisa

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