Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 63

Fri, 03 Jun 2016

• 1. how many tochachas (saul newman)
• 2. The Parshah Dual Dichotomy 5776 (Lawrence Levine)
• 3. Laining difference between Israel and Chutz Laaretz. (Jack Stroh)
• 4. Re: Laining difference between Israel and Chutz Laaretz. (Micha Berger)
• 5. rights of adopted children (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: rights of adopted children (Micha Berger)
• 7. ohr lagoyim (saul newman)
• 8. Re: ohr lagoyim (Saul Guberman)
• 9. Re: ohr lagoyim (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: ohr lagoyim (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: ohr lagoyim (saul newman)
• 12. Re: Does Bat Mitsva girl continue counting during Sefira (Saul Mashbaum)
• 13. Re: ohr lagoyim (Ben Waxman)

my wife tells me she heard a lecture in which they list 3 tochachas---- the
two plus devarim.  do people normally count that there are 3?
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From

http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6863


For many of us in the know, as well as to the surprise of anyone who might
be thinking of traveling to or from Eretz Yisrael, say anytime from after
Pesach until Shabbos Chazon, right before Tisha B'Av, something is off. I
am referring to the weekly parshah, which would not be the same regularly
scheduled one in Chutz La'aretz as it is in Eretz Yisrael.


Truthfully, this type of dichotomy actually happens not so infrequently, as
it essentially occurs whenever the last day of a Yom Tov falls on Shabbos.
In Chutz La'aretz where Yom Tov Sheini is halachically mandated,[1]<http://ohr.edu/6863#_edn1> a Yom
Tov Krias HaTorah is publicly leined, yet, in Eretz Yisrael (unless by
specific Chutznik minyanim[2]<http://ohr.edu/6863#_edn2>) the
Krias HaTorah of the next scheduled parshah is read. This puts Eretz
Yisrael a parshah ahead until the rest of the world soon 'catches up', by
an upcoming potential double-parshah, which each would be read separately
in Eretz Yisrael.


See the above URL for much more about this topic.


YL
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Hi. This is my first post. Why don't we catch up chutz laaretz with Israel
by doubling up "Achrei Mot and Kdoshim"? That would minimize the disparity?
What was the thinking of Chazal? Thanks.

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 02:18:52PM -0400, Jack Stroh via Avodah wrote:
: Hi. This is my first post. Why don't we catch up chutz laaretz with
: Israel by doubling up "Achrei Mot and Kdoshim"? That would minimize the
: disparity? What was the thinking of Chazal? Thanks.

Back a step...

Our current leining schedule post-dates Chazal, the standardization
ceoms from the geonim. And originally it was in use in Bavel. In EY,
3 or 3-1/2 year leining systems were more common.

So the systme was designed for chu"l; the parshios chu"l shuls aren't
doubling up aren't supposed to be doubled. It's Israel that slipped out
of proper alignment with geonic intent. So the question really is why
doesn't Israel fall back into line and minimize their drift from the
original geonic schedule. Well, this year there are no doubled parshios
for them to split until Matos-Masei -- just in time to realign Devarim
with the 9 days.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 37th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Yesod: When does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507               require one to be strict with another?

<<RMF is one of the very few who permit it. >>
<<Did this somehow become an emotionally charged machloqes, like eruv for
some reason tends to? >>

I agree with Micha.  I again bring a list of prominent poskim who agree
with RMF so it certainly is not a solitary opinion. I would strongly argue
that in practice most people follow the lenient opinion.
The article I previously quoted brought those to disagreed and concluded
that one should check it out with his local rabbi. He certainly did not
dismiss the lenient opinion.


 Rav Moshe Feinstein (*Teshuvot Igrot Moshe *E.H.4:64:2), Rav Eliezer
Waldenburg (*Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer*6:40:21), and Rav Chaim David
Halevi (*Teshuvot
Asei Lecha Rav *3:39) all rule that adoptive parents are permitted to
engage in Yichud with their adopted children since the Yetzer Hara is not
interested in such situations.  Rav Ovadia Yosef (see *Yalkut Yosef*,
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch p.975) is essentially lenient about this issue,
though he believes that it is preferable to adopt a girl so that the wife
who is home most of the time can shield her husband from Yichud.
Rav Nachum Rabinovitch (the prominent Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshivat Hesder
of Maaleh Adumim) is cited in Techumin 10:317 by Rav Azariah Berzon as
agreeing with the aforementioned Poskim who permit adoptive parents to have
Yichud with their adoptive children.  Rav Rabinovitch notes that Jews have
adopted children since time immemorial.
-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 12:17:31PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:                                           Rav Rabinovitch notes that
: Jews have adopted children since time immemorial.

R' Zundel Salant says that it was the zekhus of adopting the children
of those who died in makas choshekh that we were redeemed from
Mitzrayim. Since we are obligated to remember yetzi'as Mitzrayim, I can't
call it "time immemorial", but since our birth as a nation, certainly.

From <http://www.aishdasorg/asp/chamushim>:

    Chamushim

        Hashem brought the nation around, via the path of the desert,
        the Red Sea; and the Children of Israel arose chamushim (to be
        defined) from the Land of Egypt.
                            - Shemos 13:8

        ... and the Jews enthusiastically departed from the Land of Egypt.
                            - Targum Unqelus (ad loc)

        ... with good deeds...
                            - Jerusalem Targum (ad loc)

        ... one in five.
                            -Tanchuma (Warsaw ed. #1), Mechilta

        ... and the Jews departed with five infants from the Land of Egypt.
                            - Targum Yonasan (ad loc)

    Rashi defines "chamushim as "armed", which underlies the Targumim
    of Unqelus and Yerushalmi. Armed in a spiritual sense, prepared with
    good deeds.

    Another definition would be from chameish, five, leading to the
    medrash concluding that only 1/5 of the Jewish were saved from Egypt.
    Rashi adds that the other 4/5 of the population died in Egypt
    during the plague of darkness. These were the people who didn't
    merit redemption; those who believed in the Egyptian paganism and
    wanted to stay.

    Deriving chamushim from the number five is also the point of departure
    for the Targum Yonsan's "departed with five infants." But the medrash
    on Shemos, describing the Egypt experience, told us that we had six
    children at a time. How then can the Targum Yonasan here mean that
    every Jew left with five children, as though this smaller number is
    something that should impress us? The Be'er Yoseif therefore believes
    the naive read of the Targum Yonasan is incorrect.

    Instead, the Be'er Yoseif explains all these targumim in light of
    each other. The word chamushim was chosen not despite the ambiguity,
    but because of all its connotations.

    Four fifths of the Jewish people died rather than being saved. But
    what about their children? The youth didn't deserve death, even if
    they agreed with their parents -- as children, they aren't accountable
    or punishable for their crimes. The Be'er Yoseif explains that this
    means that each of the 600,000 men left Egypt had to have left with
    five families of children -- his own, and those of four families
    left orphaned by this punishment. Far more than the six-at-a-time
    that were born to them.

    This is not only the intent of the Targum Yonasan, but also, raising
    others' children the "good deeds" of the Jerusalem Targum, as well
    as the "zerizus", the enthusiasm, of the Targum Unqelus. They were
    prepared and surrounded by the mitzvah of taking in these children
    in need.

    Today we think of adoption as something someone does when they r"l
    can't have children of their own. However, in light of this devar
    Torah, we see that this mitzvah played a central role in defining
    us as a people. According to the Be'er Yosef, it is the merit of
    adopting orphans that rendered us ready for the redemption from Egypt!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?

when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation could it
practically have been implied?
was it ever taken seriously?

ie  in ghettoized Europe , the Accursed Wandering Jew was only the killer
of the 'saviour';  not much better in Moslem Middle East.
 In Modern Times, it can't refer to the million chassidim , to whom
isolationism is the ideal , not to mention theologies of the value of the
gentile.
 In Litvish models, ideally the Jew should be confined to the beis medrash
, and the spouse 'kvoodah pnima'. It is only the lack of Manna that
interferes and forces bedieved one out of the ghetto.
The OTD Jews of the last 200 yrs who have impacted every walk of life and
every class of endeavor in academia , commerce , culture and liberal polity
can not have been what chazal had in mind.
The Israel model is the most vilified political entity on Earth.
If it's only a messianic concept , then it has nothing to do with the Jews
, only the Messiah.

so i guess i don't get when this concept was meant to be relevant,
practically.
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On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 12:15 PM, saul newman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation could it
> practically have been implied?
> was it ever taken seriously?
>
> SNIP
>
> so i guess i don't get when this concept was meant to be relevant,
> practically.
>


A quick search shows that Ohr La Goyim is mentioned 3 times in Yishayahu.
It is a real concept.  It is meant for every generation.  That you then
show we have not lived up to that goal at various times and/or other
nations do not see us that way does not negate the concept.  It shows we or
they need work in this area.
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On 5/31/2016 9:40 PM, Saul Guberman via Avodah wrote:
> A quick search shows that Ohr La Goyim is mentioned 3 times in 
> Yishayahu.  It is a real concept.

No, it is not.

> when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation could it 
> practically have been implied?
> was it ever taken seriously?

The phrase ohr l'goyim doesn't exist.  There are three verses where 
something similar exists.

Isaiah 49:6 says that Hashem has placed us l'ohr goyim.  Isaiah 42:6 
also says that Hashem placed us l'ohr goyim.  And Isaiah 60:3 says that 
nations will walk in our light.

There's a big difference between ohr l'goyim and l'ohr goyim. The former 
implies some sort of responsibility to reach out to the nations of the 
world.  The latter says that we are a nation among nations, but what 
kind?  A light.  They come to us.  And it's not for any specific 
generation, I don't think, but all of them.  We are the example.

Whenever I hear "ohr l'goyim" it irks me, because it's such a mistake.

Lisa

On Wed, Jun 01, 2016 at 01:25:31PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: There's a big difference between ohr l'goyim and l'ohr goyim. The
: former implies some sort of responsibility to reach out to the
: nations of the world.  The latter says that we are a nation among
: nations, but what kind?  A light.  They come to us....

This is clearly peshat in Yeshaiah 60:3, "beholkhu goyim le'oreikh..." But
"le'or goyim", in 42:6 and 49:6...

I would have said something close to the reverse; to me le'or goyim
sounds more like an imperative.

An or lagoyim is a descriptive construction. Yeshaiah would be saying
that we are light for the nations. L'or goyim is more prescriptive,
we are "to provide light for nations". Not as a light, but in to be
one. And it's up to us to actually illuminate.

BTW, according to Rashi (42:6) those goyim are the shevatim, not other
nations.

And according the Metzudas David, it's a messianic prophecy, not an
imperative before-hand.

The thing is, we're obligated to serve as a nation of kohanim in the
here-and-now regardless of Yeshaiah. So I see this as a discussion of
peshat in the pesuqim, with no pragmatic difference to hashkafah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          reliable person?

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 12:15 PM, saul newman wote:
>> when did this concept in chazal begin?  to which generation could it
>> practically have been implied?
>> was it ever taken seriously?

> A quick search shows that Ohr La Goyim is mentioned 3 times in Yishayahu.
> It is a real concept.  It is meant for every generation.  That you then
> show we have not lived up to that goal at various times and/or other
> nations do not see us that way does not negate the concept.  It shows we or
> they need work in this area.

my point is a bit different than yours. it is that the RBSO arranged
history so that the nation of light should be seen as a scourge of
humanity in all generations; except possibly recent times, when those
clearly NOT living a halachic life are seen by some at least to have
been a source of blessing... furthermore, we fast on the day the
Bible was translated, so we can't even say that the other Abrahamic
religions is the explanation, since they become in a sense Fruit of a
poisonous tree, to use the legal analogy

I am gratified that my understanding that a girl who becomes Bat
Mitzva during the sefira period can continue to count with a bracha
was also expressed to  RAFrimer by RMH. Unlike RAFrimer, I do not
think that  this this constitutes a "fundamental misunderstanding" of
brachot women make on time-bound mitzvoth, according to the Rema and
standard Ashkenazic practice. If a pre-Bat Mitzva girl can make a
bracha on sefirat haomer, her count is clearly a kiyum mitzvah
(otherwise she could not make a bracha) , and thus she should be able
to continue counting with a bracha after becoming Bat Mitzva, her
chiyuv-level not having changed.

I am completely unsurprised that Rav Asher Weiss paskened that a girl
who becomes Bat Mitzva during sefira can continue counting with a
bracha,  based on his understanding of the mitzvah of sefirat haomer,
as appears in Minchat Asher Vayikra chapter 51. R. Asher asks a series
of questions that indicate that sefirat haomer is different from other
mitzvoth which are performed verbally (see there). He then explains as
follows (my formulation): There are mitzvot in which the action
(peula) constitutes the mitzvah, and there are those in which the
result (totzaa) is the mitzvah, the action being the means to
achieving the purpose of the mitzvah, the result alone constituting
avodat Hashem. Shofar, lulav, matza are examples of the former. Biur
chametz and maakeh are examples of the latter. We make brachot on both
categories of mitzvot, but there are differences between them. Sefirat
Haomer is a mitzvah in which the totzaa is the mitzvah itself;  the
avodaat Hashem of sfirat haomer  is knowing the count every day, not
saying the words themselves. Saying the words is the action by which
the desired result is achieved (unlike other verbal mitzvoth like
kriyat shma and hallel in which saying the words themselves is avodat
Hashem). R. Asher explained elsewhere that mitzvot in which the tozaa
is the mitzvah do not require kavana , which is why someone who
answers the question "what's the count tonight?" without intending to
perform the mitzvah of sefira is nevertheless  considered to have
performed the mitzvah. In sefira, when a day is counted, when the
result of the counting  has been achieved (the person knows, by
counting, what day it is), the mitzvah has been done.

My application of the above: Even if a minor is not obligated in a
mitzvah in which the totzaa is the kiyum kamitzva, if he does it, the
mitzvah has been done (for example , mistaber if a katan made a
maakeh, the owner of the house has fulfilled his obligation, as is
definitely true if a non-Jew made a maakeh). Thus, when a katan
counts, he has achieved on the personal level the mitzvah of sefira
(he knows the proper count, which he expresses by counting) , even if
strictly he is not  obligated; when he becomes a gadol, he is
considered not to have missed any days, and can continue to count with
a bracha.  As Rav Asher explicitly paskened, this applies to a k'tana
as well.

Saul Mashbaum

To give a metaphor: If the machine generating the light is working 
improperly, the light could be dangerous and it needs to be sent out for 
repair.

Without getting into the question of how the machine broke down (God 
directing or us choosing to break it), it is clear that if we aren't 
doing the job, a tikkun is required

Ben

On 6/1/2016 6:22 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> my point is a bit different than yours. it is that the RBSO arranged
> history so that the nation of light should be seen as a scourge of
> humanity in all generations;




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