Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 57

Tue, 17 May 2016

• 1. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer ()
• 3. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Moadim Chagim Zmanim (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: cooking kitniyot in a peasdik pot (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: chumrah and kula (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: chumrah and kula (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: chumrah and kula (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Kiddush hashem via issur (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Kiddush hashem via issur (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Shiur for Kesem today (Ilana Elzufon)
• 16. Re: Kiddush hashem via issur (Micha Berger)

AFAIK a challal can marry a regular Jewish girl. He is forbidden from 
other things like truma. OTOH he has no issur of tumah.

Ben

On 5/15/2016 8:45 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> True, a woman who's a convert can't marry a kohen so his daughters 
> won't be able to marry kohanim.  But at least his children won't be 
> challalim, so they can marry most Jews, and the /children/ of converts 
> can marry anyone, so his grandchildren can marry anyone.

 




> True, a woman who's a convert can't marry a kohen so  his daughters 
> won't be able to marry kohanim.  But at least his  children won't be 
> challalim, so they can marry most Jews, and the  /children/ of converts 
> can marry anyone, so his grandchildren can  marry anyone.[--old TK]

AFAIK a challal can marry a regular Jewish girl. He is forbidden from  
other things like truma. OTOH he has no issur of  tumah.

Ben
ben1...@zahav.net.il 
 
>>>>>
 
 
 
But I think the son of a challal is a challal, and his son, and his son,  
forever.  And the daughter of a challal cannot marry a kohen. So his  
granddaughter (son of his son), his great-granddaughter and so on, can never  marry 
kohanim -- at least until so many generations have passed that no one  
remembers the family are challalim.  Whereas if he has a son with a  non-Jewish 
woman that son is not a challal.  He's also not a Jew, but he  can become 
one.  And the daughter of a ger can marry a kohen.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------





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On 05/16/2016 03:14 PM, Marty Bluke wrote:
>     The gemara there doesn't say that your children by a shifcha are not yours.
>     The gemara isn't concerned with whose children they are, it's concerned with
>     their status.   It says that your children by a shifcha are avadim like her,
>     and its proof is from the explicit pasuk that they will be her owner's
>     property.  QED.  That doesn't preclude them being your children, e.g. to
>     exempt your wife from yibbum. (The Tosfos I cited above says they're not,
>     but it's explicitly discussing it from the rabbanan's POV, not from that
>     of R Tarfon, which is what we're discussing.)
>
> You are assuming that the Torah distinguishes between yichus and them being
> your children.

Neither the pasuk nor the gemara says anything about their yichus.  All it
discusses is their status.  The Pasuk says they belong to their mother's
owner, therefore the gemara says they are avadim.  There's no chain of logic
involved here; the gemara is merely restating the pasuk.

That is very unlike the gemara's next case, where the pasuk doesn't directly
address the children in question at all, and its indirect statement is that
they are not yours, from which the gemara infers that they must be nochrim.



> I don't think there is such a distinction. Yichus determines whether they
> are your children or not.

Well, yes, that's what yichus *is*.


> Since the child of a shifcha is an eved they can't be related to you as
> a Jew can't be related to a non Jew.

1) Who says a Jew can't be related to a non-Jew?  The gemara's order of
logic is *not* "they're nochrim, therefore they're not your children",
but rather "they're not your children, therefore they're nochrim".

2) Avadim *are* Jews, so who says they can't be related to Jews?


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 05/16/2016 05:13 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> AFAIK a challal can marry a regular Jewish girl. He is forbidden from
> other things like truma. OTOH he has no issur of tumah.

A Chalal is exactly like a Yisrael, except that his wife and daughters
are chalalos, who cannot marry cohanim, and his sons are are chalalim
like him.   Chalalus goes down the male line forever.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 06:27:31PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: In both the Kiddush and Amidah of Yom Tov, we have several phrases:
: shabasos limnucha
: moadim l'simcha
: chagim uzmanim l'sason
: 
: I have a pretty clear understanding of what Shabasos are...
: My first guess is that Moadim includes both Yom Tov and also Chol Hamoed,
: because they share the mitzvah of simcha, as specified. But then what are
: Chagim and Zmanim, and how are they distinct from each other, and are they
: the same in regards to Sason?

Apparently they are different aspects of the same thing. As in, "Chag
haMatzos haZeh, zeman Cheiruseinu."

There is a duality between zeman va'eis, as in a beris being be'ito uvizmano.
Quoting what I wrote in v15n74:
>                             ... RAKotler has a beautiful vort on the
> difference. Beqitzur to the point of omitting the beauty: eis = a
> point in the time sequence of a process. (RSRH would probably relate
> "eis" to "ad".) Be'ito, when the baby is ready. Zeman = a point in
> time according to a scedule. In this case, the morning of day 8 (or
> day 9 when a safeiq Shabbos situation arises). I wrote a vort for MmD
> on eis, zeman, qeitz, yamim, shanim, and Jewish time in general at
> <http://www.aishdas.org/mesukim/5764/mikeitz.pdf>.

In that vertl, I suegges that a qeitz is where the zeman and eis for the
end coincide. Thus, "miqeitz shenasayim yamim" is when the predetermined
number of years in jail were up AND when Yoseif was developmentally ready.
Shanim and yamim. Circular time and linear time.

A chag is a point in circular time, /ch-v-g/ related to /`-v-g/ to draw
a circle. It's a sacred eis.

But every chag coincides with a sacred zeman.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

I feil to see the problem.

Nosein ta'am and bitul beshishim go hand-in-hand. RMF yses this argument
in a letter to R' Pinechas Teitz to explain why whiskey can be made
in sherry casks; since stam yeinam is batel in only 1:6, there is no
problem of ta'am. You would obviously tased a mixture of 6 parts water
to one part wine. Since qitniyos are batel berov, why would there be
reason to say that a pot can becomes "peasdik"? (To quote a subject
line from a month ago.) Are we afraid that the volume of the walls of
the pot exceed the volume the pot holds?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

1) Wouldn't marrying a Jewess be better than marrying a non-Jew? No 
issur involved.
2) L'ma'aseh, does anyone today check to see if a woman wanting to marry 
a cohen has a status of a tzona (other than checking if she is a convert 
or divorcee)?

On 5/16/2016 11:31 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> A Chalal is exactly like a Yisrael, except that his wife and daughters
> are chalalos, who cannot marry cohanim, and his sons are are chalalim
> like him.   Chalalus goes down the male line forever.

<<wever, I would think we could use DNA testing to help a shetuqi or
asufi, to free him for the shadow of mamzeirus or at least allow him to
marry vadai mamzeiros. >>

Once one uses a DNA test I assume that one has to use the results.
While a  shetuqi or asufi, can't marry at all is it clear that in terms of
yichus
this is worse than a mamzer vadai?


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 05:54:21PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Once one uses a DNA test I assume that one has to use the results.
: While a  shetuqi or asufi, can't marry at all is it clear that in terms of
: yichus this is worse than a mamzer vadai?

Exactly. Better to use a DNA test to make a shetuqi or asufi either
kosher yichus or a vadai mamzer than leaving him a shetuqi or asifu.
So I assume in such cases, we should use the DNA test; either result
is better than none. (And it's not a kivan shenitme'ah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

On Fri, May 06, 2016 at 03:34:07PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> For every inheritance case that would be solved, we'd probably be
:> declaring someone else to be a mamzer if we accept DNA. Is it worth it?

: Which is why no bet din accepts DNA for mamzer cases. Doesn't mean one
: can't accept it in many other cases

A little more complicated, since discussing chumeros in mamzeirus raises
an issue distinct to mamzeirus. "Kivan denitme'ah, nitme'ah" is a gezeiras
hakasuv which makdes resolving mamzeirus in many cases beyond chumerah --
altogether needless. Being born of a father other than the husband does
not make these people mamzeirim altogether. More than that, the gemara
(Qiddushin 71a) continues telling you one SHOULD NOT reveal the families
in which mamzeirus is nitme'ah.

It is therefore consistent to refuse DNA testing for mamzeirus (in these
cases), while believing that DNA testing is in principle halachically
valid evidence. Part of a general reluctance to gather eviudence.

However, I would think we could use DNA testing to help a shetuqi or
asufi, to free him for the shadow of mamzeirus or at least allow him to
marry vadai mamzeiros.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

On 5/17/2016 8:35 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> 1) Wouldn't marrying a Jewess be better than marrying a non-Jew? No 
> issur involved.

But then their sons are challalim.

> 2) L'ma'aseh, does anyone today check to see if a woman wanting to 
> marry a cohen has a status of a tzona (other than checking if she is a 
> convert or divorcee)?

Zona, with a zayin.  I know one couple who, when they went to get 
married, were told by their rabbi that she was a virgin.  That he didn't 
want to hear about what she'd done or not done.  Granted, she wasn't 
marrying a kohen, but I guess there's a chazaka.

Lisa

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 08:06:44PM +0300, Simon Montagu via Areivim wrote:
: Lowering esteem of HKBH or the Torah among people whose values contradict
: the Torah is not a hillul hashem....
: As RZS has often said here, kiddush hashem does not mean "good PR"

And as I repeatedly responded, untrue. A talmid chakham with dirty
clothes (or Rav buying his meat on credi, Yuma 86a) poses a chilul
hasheim because CH *does* mean "bad PR", vekhein lehefekh -- a qiddush
hasheim is something that draws others to avodas Hashem.

Later in that same sugya in Yuma, Yitzchaq od R' Yannai's BM says,
"Anyone whose peers are embarassed of his reputation is a chilul hasheim,
and R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq, such as if people say, "May the L-rd forgive
Peloni. Abayei then says this is like the beraisa on the pasuq "ve'ahavta
es H' Elokekha" -- that sheim shamayim should be beloved because of you.

The gemara literally defines qiddush hasheim has good PR.

To tweak that first quoted sentence:
Lowering esteem of HKBH or the Torah among people because they hold values
that contradict the Torah is not a chillul hasheim.

That isn't you pushing them away from avodas Hashem, it's them a natural
downward spiral. However, lowering that estaeem among people whose values
contradict the Torah's for other reasons is NOT "sheyehei sheim shamayim
mis'aheiv al yadekha."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

On 05/17/2016 03:54 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> And as I repeatedly responded, untrue. A talmid chakham with dirty
> clothes (or Rav buying his meat on credi, Yuma 86a) poses a chilul
> hasheim because CH*does*  mean "bad PR", vekhein lehefekh -- a qiddush
> hasheim is something that draws others to avodas Hashem.

Only among those whose values match those of the Torah.

> Later in that same sugya in Yuma, Yitzchaq od R' Yannai's BM says,
> "Anyone whose peers are embarassed of his reputation is a chilul hasheim,

Emphasis on "his peers".  Those who hold the same values.

> and R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq, such as if people say, "May the L-rd forgive
> Peloni.

Again we see that we are talking only about those who believe in Hashem and
His value system.   If people say "may Baal forgive Peloni", that is a
*kiddush* haShem.


> Abayei then says this is like the beraisa on the pasuq "ve'ahavta
> es H' Elokekha" -- that sheim shamayim should be beloved because of you.

It should be obvious that this is only among those who have a correct
value system.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 05/16/2016 09:18 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> Btw, thanks to reb google, see article on this subject (though it does not
> extensively deal w my questions)
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/mamzerShifcha.pdf

Very thorough, but I see one enormous flaw -- the author takes it for
granted that slavery is barred by dina demalchusa.  This may be true in
some countries, e.g. the UK, where the common law has held for centuries
that England was too pure an air for a slave to breathe in, and thus that
any slave who sets foot in England automatically becomes free.  But it
remains to be established that this is the case in all countries,
particularly in the USA, where the 13th amendment only bans *involuntary*
servitude.  I am unaware of any law in the USA that would prevent a person
from voluntarily becoming the property of another, and after _Lawrence_
and _Obergefell_ such laws, if they exist, may even be unconstitutional!
If so, then the shifcha method could work here.   There may well also be
other countries where this is the case.  And in Israel it might be possible
to introduce legislation in the Knesset to explicitly legalise voluntary
avdus, with appropriate safeguards to prevent it being abused.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

RMB:

> Or do we say that when they were gozerin on kesamim, the gerzeirah didn't
> include a kesem equal to or smaller than a kegeris, and therefore we
> make no assumptions at all about where the kesem came from?


See Pit'chei Teshuvah 190:10, towards the end, quoting the Chatam Sofer.
Basically, he points out that ketamim are deRabbanan - and what's more, the
reason the Rabbis made the gezerah in the first place was because of the
severity of the laws of taharot. He says that even though that reason no
longer applies in our current circumstances, we can't nullify the gezerah
of ketamim altogether. But we certainly don't need to extend it beyond the
specifications of the original gezerah. So a ketem smaller than a k'gris
does not make a woman niddah, even nowadays when such a stain cannot
plausibly be attributed to a ma'akolet.

Kol tuv,
Ilana
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On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 04:30:39PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: On 05/17/2016 03:54 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >And as I repeatedly responded, untrue. A talmid chakham with dirty
: >clothes (or Rav buying his meat on credit, Yuma 86a) poses a chilul
: >hasheim because CH*does*  mean "bad PR", vekhein lehefekh -- a qiddush
: >hasheim is something that draws others to avodas Hashem.
: 
: Only among those whose values match those of the Torah.

Where does it say that?

And who has values that match the Torah's who would judge the Torah
by how clean some TC's frock is?

: >Later in that same sugya in Yuma, Yitzchaq od R' Yannai's BM says,
: >"Anyone whose peers are embarassed of his reputation is a chilul hasheim,

: Emphasis on "his peers".  Those who hold the same values.

The reputation that causes the embarassment is the CH. And the reputation
is not limited to those peers.

: >and R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq, such as if people say, "May the L-rd forgive
: >Peloni.

: Again we see that we are talking only about those who believe in Hashem and
: His value system.   If people say "may Baal forgive Peloni", that is a
: *kiddush* haShem.

??? Every monotheist follows the Torah? What if his behavior is a turn-off
to Tzeduqim?

Besides, who said the person's master / lord is ours? Other than my
capitalization and hyphen, that's not a compelled reading.


: >Abayei then says this is like the beraisa on the pasuq "ve'ahavta
: >es H' Elokekha" -- that sheim shamayim should be beloved because of you.
: 
: It should be obvious that this is only among those who have a correct
: value system.

You're inserting your conclusion into a sentence that has no such
limitation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?


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