Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 55

Sun, 15 May 2016

• 1. Re: Gebrochts - Matza, Flour Outside or Inside - Can Anyone Substantiate This Today (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Hallel on Yom Haazmaut (Zev Sero)
• 3. which is worse (saul newman)
• 4. Hallel on yom haamayt (Eli Turkel)
• 5. May I presently buy Israeli carrots after the recent Shmita year? (Lawrence Levine)
• 6. how to 'fix' a mamzer (M Cohen)
• 7. on a role for a 'secular' Israel (saul newman)
• 8. which is more problematic (saul newman)
• 9. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Hallel on yom haamayt (Harry Maryles)
• 11. Re: Hallel on yom haamayt (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: how to 'fix' a mamzer (M Cohen)
• 13. Shiur for Kesem today (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Shiur for Kesem today (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Shiur for Kesem today (Mike Miller)

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:33:31AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: The ShA HaRav writes
: "as can be readily seen, many baked Matzos have a little flour on their
: surface which is a consequence of the Matza dough not being thoroughly
: kneaded ...."

Mimah-nafshakh the AR is speaing about it being a big enough risk to
justify a minhag lehachmir, but not to the level of an issur. The AR
writes "Be'emes, ki gam she'eino isur gamur bubarur midina, m"m
hamachmir tavo alav berakhah." If it was normal for flour to be present
on matzos, it would be a risk one would not be allowed to take. And if
it was easy to see, no risk would be legitimate -- efshar levareir!

We need to understand his empirical claims accordingly. Not a statement
about something blatant that someone would notice without even a formal
survey.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

On 05/12/2016 05:57 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Rashi is saying that Yeshiah 30:29 promises another holiday in which
> Hallel will be said at night. Not a lack of other holidays with Hallel
> for lesser reasons, nor even another holiday with Hallel at night before
> establishing one to celbrate the complete ge'ulah.

I'm pretty sure this does exclude any other night-time hallel.   That,
after all, is the gemara's point in quoting the pasuk in the first place
-- to show that there is only one night on which hallel is said, and
therefore it is not said on Pesach Sheni.

I also don't see the implication that the future holiday's hallel will
be said at night.  All the pasuk seems to be saying is that there will
be a new yomtov on which you will say hallel, as you do on the night
that is sanctified for a chag.  Yeshayahu is merely citing an example
of an occasion when hallel is said, and could easily have cited a
different one instead, but he would have had to be more specific,
since there are many days on which hallel is said, and many on which
it is not.  By citing Pesach night as his example, he can get away
with saying, essentially, "like on hallel night", which is not ambiguous
because there is only one.  From this the gemara learns that there is
no hallel on Pesach Sheni.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

http://www.yutorah.org/search/?s=yom+haatzmaut&;sort=1

1. the issue of date changing of YH  is dealt with in rabbi grunstein's
lecture

2. the issue of saying hallel at all , that some provocatively dismiss
outright, is dealt with by rabbi zylberman,  appropriately in his talk at
the Aguda of Passaic
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While I personally applaud the lessened chillul Shabbos that has resulted
from this change, I am concerned about saying Hallel (et al) on a day which
is not the actual anniversary.

Actually the original declaration of independence was moved up one day from
the end of the British mandate to avoid chillul shabbat so yom haazmaut was
always arranged to avoid chillul shabbat
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OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


A. Israeli carrots currently being sold in the U.S. (May 2016) at this
point can be assumed to no longer be peiros shevi'is and may be purchased
lichatchila. In fact, purchasing Israeli products is commendable as it
benefits the Israeli economy. However, if the carrots do not have a
reliable kosher certification, one must separate the relevant tithes
(Terumos and Ma'aseros). This year is the first year of the shemita cycle.
This means that ma'aser sheini must be separated. The ma'aser sheini
portion can be redeemed by transferring its kedusha (elevated status) to a
coin. Even a nickel may be used, provided the ma'aser sheini portion
(approximately 9% of the package of carrots) is worth more than a peruta,
approximately 3 or 4 cents.


For the procedure to separate Terumah and Maaser, see https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/separating-terumah-and-ma
aser/<;http://links.mkt3536.com/ctt?k
n=1&;ms=MTI5NDI0MDMS1&r=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&b=0&j=NzQzMzc3
MTQwS0&mt=1&rt=0>.

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R Tarfon at the end of the 3rd chap of kiddushin gives an eitza for a mamzer
who wants to 'purified' - to have relations w a shifcha which will produce
children avodim, and then free the children (who will then become regular
Jews)

2 questions.

1. What is the heter to free the kids? 
(it's a torah prohibition to free them)

2. why bother in the first place. The kids are not related to him, and he
did not fulfill pru u'revu thru them
(the kids are m'yayachais to the mother, and not to him)

parenthetically I would think a similar kasha c be asked on a pasuk. Shemos
21:5
A Jew who is married to a regular jewess, has relations w a shifcha and kids
thru her (eved ivri)
He decides he wants to 'stay' with his shifcha (I guess his relationship
with his Jewish wife and kids isn't too good)
The posuk calls his shifcha and kids as 'ishti and banay' - why?

Mordechai cohen




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http://www.yutor
ah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/856920/rabbi-moshe-taragin/secular-zionism-for-
religious-jews/#.VzVBhX-h6_c.mailto

Very good explanation to MTA  boys on how to look at  the zionist
enterprise and how to view it in the scope haskala, brit sinai vs moriah ,
kiddush hashem   etc
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>>>What is objectionable to me is the slyly provocative tone of this
question.


----some people need to ask themselves why asking a halachic question
provokes them.
maybe the 'slyness' was pointing out that an issur can only be perceived as
assur by those who believe said action is assur , not by those who feel
act in question is muttar/mitzvah. clearly i couldn't ask why people who
commemorate those two days don't realize that it's actually assur....
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On 05/13/2016 11:52 AM, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
> R Tarfon at the end of the 3rd chap of kiddushin gives an eitza for a mamzer
> who wants to 'purified' - to have relations w a shifcha which will produce
> children avodim, and then free the children (who will then become regular
> Jews)
>
> 2 questions.
>
> 1. What is the heter to free the kids?
> (it's a torah prohibition to free them)

It's also prohibited to have relations with a shifcha, but Chazal
permitted a mamzer to do so for this purpose.



> 2. why bother in the first place. The kids are not related to him, and he
> did not fulfill pru u'revu thru them
> (the kids are m'yayachais to the mother, and not to him)

How do you know that?  The Torah says your children from a nochris are not
yours, but where does it say that your children from a shifcha are not yours?


> parenthetically I would think a similar kasha c be asked on a pasuk. Shemos
> 21:5  A Jew who is married to a regular jewess, has relations w a shifcha
>  and kids thru her (eved ivri)
> He decides he wants to 'stay' with his shifcha (I guess his relationship
> with his Jewish wife and kids isn't too good)

Why do you say that?  On the contrary, "veyatz'ah ishto imo" means his
wife goes in with him, i.e. lives with him at his owner's expense.  And
*only* a married eved ivri is allowed a shifcha.   The simple and expected
case is that he loves and gets along with *both* of his wives, and wants
to stay with both.


> The posuk calls his shifcha and kids as 'ishti and banay' - why?

Again, because she is his wife and they are his children.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Friday, May 13, 2016 4:39 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> While I personally applaud the lessened chillul Shabbos that has resulted
> from this change, I am concerned about saying Hallel (et al) on a day which
> is not the actual anniversary.

> Actually the original declaration of independence was moved up one day...

RAS said Hallel on 5 Iyar no matter what day of the week it came out
on. That the Rabbanut moved that day forward or backward to avoid Chilul
Shabbos was not significant. The day that Israel was declared a state
is the day to say Hallel (and not to say Tachnun). One can review the
Halachic sources RAS used in his book 'Logic of the heart, Logic of
the Mind'.

HM
Want Emes and Emunah in your life?
Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/ 

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 06:24:08PM +0000, Harry Maryles wrote:
: RAS said Hallel on 5 Iyar no matter what day of the week it came out
: on...

Although RAS was niftar before the telecom explosion that caused much
of the RCA to shift position. As RGS recently wrote about R/Dr Aaron
Levine of Flatbush
<http://www.torahmusings.com/technology-halakhic-change-yom-ha-atzmaut
>:

   In America, where the celebrations can be more easily controlled to
   avoid the desecration of Shabbos, many authorities did not recognize
   the change of date, among them Rav Ahron Soloveichik and Rav Hershel
   Schachter. They insisted that people recite Hallel on the fifth of Iyar
   -- the day of the miracle of the declaration of the State of Israel --
   regardless of when Israelis celebrate the day. Rav Aaron Levine's son,
   Rav Efraim Levine, told me that his father had to change his position
   on this question over time.

   Initially, Rav Levine followed Rav Soloveichik's ruling on this subject
   and instructed his congregants to always recite Hallel on the fifth of
   Iyar. However, the internet forced him to change his position. If I
   understand correctly from our brief conversation, Rav Levine's
   reasoning was that, in the past, Yom Ha-Atzma'ut celebrations were
   local, taking place in synagogues and schools with perhaps some
   articles in the Jewish newspaper. It was easy for a community to
   determine its own date to celebrate.

RAS might have decided similarly or not had he lived to see the day
when the primary intercontinental communication was the telephone,
not the aerogram. We can't know.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

RZS writes   ...How do you know that?  The Torah says your children from a
nochris are not yours, but where does it say that your children from a
shifcha are not yours?

You are claiming a tremendous chidush l'halacha - that these are actually
his kids. Do you have anyone who says this?

It w appear not, bc they are not mityaches acharav (as a proof - we see that
they are avodim, and not mamzers)

mc




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The justification for the shiur of a geris for kesmamim on clothing
is that any spot that is a kegeris or less in area could be from a
crushed parasite. So the kesem proves nothing. Also (Niddah 58b) points
out that they couldn't make a gezeirah that would mean she would never
be tahor leba'alah.

I am wondering, how can we today be toleh bema'akholes? BH we live in a
place and time where healthy people are not plagued with lice and whatnot,
that this is a likely alternative explanation.

Or do we say that when they were gozerin on kesamim, the gerzeirah didn't
include a kesem equal to or smaller than a kegeris, and therefore we
make no assumptions at all about where the kesem came from?

For comparison:

Tosafos (58b, "ukidvarav") say that if she were infested with many
ma'akhalos, one could be toleh even a larger kesem on that. We do not
hold like Tosafos. The AhS (YD 190:18) pins that on these bugs being
loners. They don't scamper in pairs. Multiple crushed lice would make
multiple kesamim. Alternatively (se'if 27, in the name of the Rosh se'if
6) lo pelug chakhamim.

Then there is the that if one can be be toleh on pishpeshin, in which
case the shiur goes up to anything less than a turmos. Literally,
pishpeshin are "finders". Jastrow said these are bedbugs, but I've
unfortunately have seen bedbugs, I doubt they have more capacity than
lice. Also, unlike bedbugs, pishpeshin smell, which is one of the
ways of knowing whether such blame is possible.

(A ma'akholes is apparently too common or too unnoticable to warrant
needing to know if there was one around.)

And the AhS (se'if 31) says that because pishpeshin can't be found where
he lives, this din doesn't apply. This is based on Rashi ("R"N") saying
"there are places where pishpeshin are found, and in those places..."

Would people living in modern settings have to say the same about the
ma'akholes?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 22nd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Netzach: Do I take control of the
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 situation for the benefit of others?

> I am wondering, how can we today be toleh bema'akholes? BH we live in a
> place and time where healthy people are not plagued with lice and whatnot,
> that this is a likely alternative explanation.

Bedbugs are back, and can strike anywhere, and the first indication of
their presence, long before one actually sees them, is the kesamim they
leave behind.  I wonder if "maacholes" actually means bedbug, but even if
it doesn't the same principle applies.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> Then there is the that if one can be be toleh on pishpeshin, in which
> case the shiur goes up to anything less than a turmos. Literally,
> pishpeshin are "finders". Jastrow said these are bedbugs, but I've
> unfortunately have seen bedbugs, I doubt they have more capacity than
> lice. Also, unlike bedbugs, pishpeshin smell, which is one of the
> ways of knowing whether such blame is possible.

The bedbugs that I had seen in both the US and Israel are
significantly larger than lice, and when filled with blood, hold a lot
more. Furthermore, bed bugs have a very distinct odor (at least when
there is a significant infestation) that many people can smell.

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh


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