Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 54

Thu, 12 May 2016

• 1. smartphone on shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: which is more problematic (Akiva Miller)
• 3. G-d and logic (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Keil Maaleh (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: G-d and logic (Zev Sero)
• 6. Gebrochts - Matza, Flour Outside or Inside - Can Anyone Substantiate This Today (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Re: G-d and logic (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: which is more problematic (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: which is more problematic (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: Hallel on Yom Haazmaut ()
• 11. Re: which is more problematic ()
• 12. Re: Hallel on Yom Haazmaut (Micha Berger)

*Zomet At The Crossroads*
*> "Telegramma" - Speaking on a Smartphone on Shabbat */ The Zomet Institute

At Zomet Institute we receive many requests on a wide range of subjects.
One subject that keeps coming back is: When will you design a cellphone
that can be used on Shabbat? This question comes from health and security
personnel, who use a special telephone as part of their regular Shabbat
routine, and who are looking for a way to use the new devices while keeping
desecration of Shabbat to a minimum.

We are happy to announce that in the last few weeks Zomet has finished the
development of a smartphone "App" that uses a speaking device for Shabbat
and where the keys are operated using the principle of "*gramma*" ?
indirect action.

Touching the screen merely changes the flow of an existing current, and
therefore the smartphone can be used when there is a need for it. The "
*Telegramma*" App is suitable for use only in cases of dire need, such as
for matters related to health, security, or similar situations.

The App is suitable for smartphones which operate on Android version 4 or
higher, and it operates in conjunction with the Telegramma speaking device.

For more details, contact us at www.zomet.org5-6]ssxhjxhhxnngntn/eng.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> It's caught on almost universally, but anyone who doesn't
> think the Knesset ought to be creating quasi-religious
> observances is likely to have a problem with it.

She wrote this in the context of Yom Hashoah, but I'd like to know
how/whether it might apply to Yom Haatzma'ut. Under the current rules, Yom
Haatzma'ut falls on 5 Iyar less than half the time. (In fact, a quick
glance at Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Ha'atzmaut#Timing
shows that in the five years from 2013-17, it was *always* on a day other
than 5 Iyar.)

While I personally applaud the lessened chillul Shabbos that has resulted
from this change, I am concerned about saying Hallel (et al) on a day which
is not the actual anniversary. Was the impetus for the change from the
Knesset or from the rabanim?

Akiva Miller
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I don't understand how G-d can contradict logic  if is greater than b which
is greater than c then a is greater than c   (for normal objects there are
strange sets for which this not true) and G-d can't  change this similarly
G-d can't create a planar triangle for which the sum of the angles is not
180 degrees
An all powerful deity has nothing to do with violating logic     i repeat
that mathematically one create wierd spaces with different rules of logic
but that has nothing to do with the present discussion
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R' Joel Rich asked:

<<< Anyone know why the standard practice developed to promise tzedakah
rather than give it prior to our request of HKB"H? >>>

Here's my guess:

What will motivate one to donate beforehand? Emotions run high when the rav
gives his Yizkor drasha (or at least, the emotions *ought* to run high).
It's hard to get into that frame of mind before the event.

This is not like other things where we are sure to prepare in advance, like
preparing our matzos or our sukkah. If someone shows up at the Seder
without matzos, the ramifications will insure that he will certainly
remember next year. But if he arrives at Yizkor (or whenever) and forgot to
donate beforehand, he'll simply promise to give after Yom Tov, and this
b'dieved eventually became the standard.

Akiva Miller
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On 05/12/2016 06:42 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> I don't understand how G-d can contradict logic if is greater than b
> which is greater than c then a is greater than c (for normal objects
> there are strange sets for which this not true) and G-d can't change
> this similarly G-d can't create a planar triangle for which the sum
> of the angles is not 180 degrees An all powerful deity has nothing to
> do with violating logic i repeat that mathematically one create wierd
> spaces with different rules of logic but that has nothing to do with
> the present discussion

That is what logicians say.  See the Lewis quote in my .sig.   But how do
you know that it's true?  Chassidus says that G-d *can* make A (which is
greater than B, which is greater than C) less than C, if He wants to,
because He created logic in the first place, and is not bound by it.

Mekom ha'aron is the most famous example.  Lewis would undoubtedly say
that Chazal's description can't be true, because an object that takes up
space can't simultaneously *not* take up any space.  An object that has
width *must* add to the width of the room in which it lies.  But Chazal
tell us it didn't.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

The ShA HaRav writes
"as can be readily seen, many baked Matzos have a little flour on their
surface which is a consequence of the Matza dough not being thoroughly
kneaded ...."

It has been noted that if the problem occurs because the dough is not or
cannot be thoroughly kneaded, then flour would be on the inside as well.

Reading the words of the ShA HaR leaves no room for any doubt - he was
definitely not concerned about flour INSIDE the Matza, ONLY flour on the
surface of the Matza.

This is what he writes,
"In truth there is no Halachic problem with Gebrochts, nevertheless those
who are strict deserve a blessing. This stringency is not without reason
and one who observes it is not acting in a bizarre manner but is in fact
concerned to avoid a Torah prohibition [brings a number of authorities]
since the flour may not have been thoroughly baked" [because flour that is
baked is denatured and cannot ever become Chamets]

"As can be readily seen, many baked Matzos have a little flour on their
surface which is a consequence of the Matza dough not being thoroughly
kneaded. Even though the flour INSIDE the Matza is a much more serious
problem because it has been protected from the heat of the oven, AND IN OUR
CASE THIS IS NOT THE SITUATION ...... "

So - back to the Q - is this factually correct?

It is clear that the ShAHa is NOT concerned about flour WITHIN the Matza
ONLY flour on the surface of the Matza

Are those who do not eat Gebrochts concerned about flour WITHIN the Matza?

Does any Posek other than the ShA HaRav assert that baked Matza has
flour on its surface? and that if so, it is not baked and thereby denatured?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:42:50AM +0000, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: I don't understand how G-d can contradict logic...

Because we use logic to understand things. The chisaron is in "understand"
not the possibility being discussed.

Lemashal, Quantum Logic is very different than the logic we use to think
with, and yet, it's still a logic with its own rules. Can you understand
how
   electron X is spin-up or spin-down, and X is spin-left

could be true, while the statement
   electron X is either spin-up and spin-left, or
   X is spin-down and spin-left

might not? And yet, the difference is experimentally provable.

Saying that Hashem can violate logic inherently means that some of His
Actions are among the non-understandable things about Him.

...
: An all powerful deity has nothing to do with violating logic...

Nu, so you agree with the Rambam. That "a round triangle" is a nonsense
phrase, not describing something that can or cannot be done.

Modern studies into logic, which has reveals that there is no one true
logical system, have made me more skeptical.

OTOH, if Hashem can defy logic, how would we ever be able to use logic to
argue the point? Any proof of the position I attributed to the Ramchal and
Zev attributes to Chassidus would require ruling out an adherance to logic
rather than pro-atively arguing for its defiance.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:31:03AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:                                               Under the current rules, Yom
: Haatzma'ut falls on 5 Iyar less than half the time....
: While I personally applaud the lessened chillul Shabbos that has resulted
: from this change, I am concerned about saying Hallel (et al) on a day which
: is not the actual anniversary. Was the impetus for the change from the
: Knesset or from the rabanim?

The CR's office, in order to reduce chillul Shabbos.

IIRC, for a while after the rule change, the RCA advised observing on
5 Iyyar in chu"l anyway, as American O observances wouldn't pose that
kind of chilul Shabbos risk. They since changed policy.

I suggested that someone may make peace with the fact by noting that
having a country where the legal holidays are moved around in order to
minimize chillul Shabbos is much of what one is saying Hallel for.

But as one blogger put it... When you sit down to learn daf beis,
you make a birkhas haTorah but not a siyum. There is what to celebrate
in the existence of such a country, but the fact that they need to worry
about chilul Shabbos by the masses shows Yom haAtzma'ut is a "birhas
haTorah", not a siyum.

Or as Rav Dovid Lifshitz put it... There is much to celebrate about YhA.
But beyond atzma'ut, the nation needs to find the etzem. The job is only
half-done.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

On 5/12/2016 1:31 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R"n Lisa Liel wrote:
>
> > It's caught on almost universally, but anyone who doesn't
> > think the Knesset ought to be creating quasi-religious
> > observances is likely to have a problem with it.
>
> She wrote this in the context of Yom Hashoah, but I'd like to know 
> how/whether it might apply to Yom Haatzma'ut. Under the current rules, 
> Yom Haatzma'ut falls on 5 Iyar less than half the time. (In fact, a 
> quick glance at Wikipedia 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Ha'atzmaut#Timing 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Ha%27atzmaut#Timing> shows that in 
> the five years from 2013-17, it was *always* on a day other than 5 Iyar.)
>
> While I personally applaud the lessened chillul Shabbos that has 
> resulted from this change, I am concerned about saying Hallel (et al) 
> on a day which is not the actual anniversary. Was the impetus for the 
> change from the Knesset or from the rabanim?

I don't know.  I suspect the rabbanut, because they were the ones who 
established the holiday in the first place, but I don't know for certain.

Lisa

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> A friend pointed out to me the  gemara near the top of Pesachim 95b.
In discussing that there is no Hallel on  Pesach Sheni the gemara brings the
Pasuk from Yeshayu "Ha-Shir Ye-he Lachem  Ke-lel Hitchadesh Chag" Rashi
explains this to mean that the song (Hallel)  will be sung when we are
redeemed at the end of the exile <<

--  
Eli Turkel

 
 
>>>>>
 
Clearly, then, it is not appropriate to say Hallel on Yom  Atzmaut.  
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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From: saul newman via Avodah _avodah@lists.aishdas.org_ 
(mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org)  in  Avodah Digest, Vol 34, Issue 53


>>  i wonder if one can consider [for the communities that  do not sanction
these two days]  which of Yom Hashoah and Yom  Haatzmaut  would be more
objectionable,  from both a halachic and  hashkafic perspective. <<




>>>>
 
What is objectionable to me is the slyly provocative tone of this  
question.  But I will take the occasion to draw your attention to what I  have 
written in the past about Yom Hashoah.  This is from Cross-Currents,  2005.  (I 
don't recommend wading through all the comments there  though.)
 
 
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/05/06/yom-hashoah/
 
 
And in 2006, in the comments section to a post by Shira Schmidt  
[http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/04/the-co
ntroversy-over-holocaust-falle
n-soldiers-terror-victims-memorials/],  I wrote this about Yom Atzmaut: 
--quoting myself-- 
My  mother has cousins ? an elderly couple, not religious ? who lost their 
only son  in the Yom Kippur War of 1973. Every year on Yom Hazikaron they 
cry anew, but  they find the abrupt transition to Yom Atzmaut too jarring and 
cannot find it in  themselves to celebrate. 
The  Israeli government tried to set up a neat historical lesson that would 
take a  few weeks each year and go in an orderly progression:
1. Galus Jews go like  sheep to the slaughter ? Yom Hashoah
2. In Israel a new Jew is created, the  proud Israeli soldier, who is brave 
and strong. He doesn?t die a helpless  victim, he dies a hero, defending 
his homeland ? Yom Hazikaron
3. All the  evil and sorrow of our past is now redeemed with the glorious 
new day, a proud  and strong new young country, the State of Israel ? Yom  
haAtzmaut. 
Of  course this simple story line has become darkened and more complex with 
the  passage of time. Israel is no longer strong and new and young but 
weary and  battle-scarred. Nowadays Yom Hashoah is commemorated with far more 
respect for  the survivors than was the case in the early days, far more 
sorrow and far less  arrogance and false pride. The Israeli Army is still looked 
at with pride but  more young Israelis try to get out of serving ? a 
favorite ploy is to feign  mental illness. The brave soldiers so lionized in the 
past are instead looked at  today simply as sons and brothers. There is less 
glory and pride and more sorrow  and grief, for all the young lives lost. 
Nevertheless, of all the institutions  of the modern Israeli state, the army is 
the one most deserving of our respect  and gratitude ? in my opinion. 
Finally,  Yom Atzmaut is not looked at, either, the way it was in the past. 
If you read  Yoram Hazony?s book *The Jewish State* ? or look at the 
soul-searching in the  Mizrachi camp after the Gaza withdrawal ? you see that on 
both ends of the  political spectrum, a weariness and wariness have set in, 
as the State has not  lived up to expectations. The Left is in a 
post-Zionist phase where patriotism  and flag-waving are passe and the alleged 
mistreatment of the Arabs overshadows  all else. The Right has seen its messianic 
expectations dashed and realizes that  the State is not yet the Redemption. 
My  mother?s cousins who can?t find it in their hearts to celebrate Yom 
Atzmaut are  not the only ones. Israel needs to rewrite its storyline. 
-- end of quote --

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============




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On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 2:06pm RnTK wrote:
: From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
:> A friend pointed out to me the gemara near the top of Pesachim 95b.
:> In discussing that there is no Hallel on Pesach Sheni the gemara brings the
:> Pasuk from Yeshayu "Ha-Shir Ye-he Lachem Ke-lel Hitchadesh Chag" Rashi
:> explains this to mean that the song (Hallel) will be sung when we are
:> redeemed at the end of the exile

: Clearly, then, it is not appropriate to say Hallel on Yom Atzmaut.

Nor on Chanukah?

Besides, what R' Yochananan mishum R' Shim'on ben Yehotzadaq actually
says there on that pasuq is that "laylah she'ein mequdash lachag, ein
ta'un hallel". Which would also exclude Chanukah.

From context, I would say the gemara is asking why the existence of a
holiday qorban in particular is not sufficient to justify Hallel on Pesach
Sheini. So RY says, because the night is not muqdash to the qorban hachag.

As for Rashi, he is commenting on the quoted pasuq. "The song will be for
you -- on the day that you will be redeemed from the galus." "Like in the
night which will be santified chag -- like the way you are acustomed to
sing on the night which is sanctified chag. And you do not have a nightof
chag to demand shirah except the nights of Pesachim, on their eating."

Rashi is saying that Yeshiah 30:29 promises another holiday in which
Hallel will be said at night. Not a lack of other holidays with Hallel
for lesser reasons, nor even another holiday with Hallel at night before
establishing one to celbrate the complete ge'ulah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?


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