Volume 34: Number 49
Wed, 04 May 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 23:43:08 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts Fantasy Requires no Hatarah
The AR's Teshuvah re Gebrochts is available for all to see. Will someone,
anyone please explain or justify how the assertions it is predicated upon
are factually correct?
Those I have communicated with seem to be incapable or unwilling.
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:20:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts Fantasy Requires no Hatarah
On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 11:43:08PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: The AR's Teshuvah re Gebrochts is available for all to see. Will someone,
: anyone please explain or justify how the assertions it is predicated upon
: are factually correct?
Which fact are you not sure of:
1- That until a couple of decades before the teshuvah people did not
count kneading time toward the kedei hilukh mil, and then people (at
least around Easter Europe) did?
2- That rushing the kneading because it now has to fit within the mil
along with baking time would increase the chance that there was unkneaded
flour on or in the matzah?
3- That the Baal haTanya is brighter than you, and should be
second-guessed with care? Even if someone known to be brilliant makes
a mistake, you know it's not likely to be a trivial one.
4- Or, the original topic.... That I would find it unlikely that RMF
would consider a minhag endorsed by the SA haRav should be dropped
without very strong motive?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 3
From: elazar teitz
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:28:43 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
Regarding this minhag (which I inherited from my father z"l, and which
had as a corollary eating virtually no bought products; e.g, my wife makes
mayonnaise for Pesach, although I no longer churn butter, as he did --
yeridas hadoros): I heard from an unimpeachable source that R. Chaim
Brisker visited the Chafetz Chaim on Pesach. The CC did not offer so much
as a cup of tea to his guest, so as not to embarrass RCB by compelling him
to decline..
I believe we can rest assured that RCB had no doubts about the degree
of the CC's observance of Pesach kashrus. It was just a taken-for-granted
practice that one did not eat out on Pesach, unless there was no
alternative.
EMT
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:40:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Parlez Vous Old French?
On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 12:43:39AM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
: I think that etymologies don't always need to be causative; they can also
: be folk etymologies or pseudoetymologies. Rashi, or whoever added that
: gloss, found a great vort on French, which allowed him to better convey the
: meaning of the verb lifsoach to a French speaking audience. It is a stroke
: of genius that serves its purpose well.
Much of what gets called "chassidishe Torah" is similar -- it's not a real
answer to the question posed, but it is real Torah. Presented in a way that
makes a roshem on a listener.
As for etymologies, I think there is also a gray area. "Yarmulka" is a
term in a number of Slavic languages for whatever cap the locals wore.
But if no one had created the folk etymology of "yarei Malka", would the
term have become as widespread or as long-lived as it did?
Historically, the name Shneiur is from Signor or perhaps Spanish Sen~or,
or most likely the original Latin "Senior", which means "Zaqein", with
all the implications of sagicity. But I think more Shneiurs today are
named for the shnei or of Shabbos licht. Especially since that's why R
Aharon and Rn Rivqah Chanah Perel Kotler chose the name for their son,
born Friday evening.
(BTW, RSK was a dapper looking man in his Chevron days
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shneur_Kotler#/media/File:Rabbi_Shneur_Kotler.jpg
Found it while looking to confirm the story about when he was born.)
OTOH, Marche-shvan vs "Mar Cheshvan" has halachic import, and one cannot
let the folk etymology cause people to write the wrong thing on a gett;
nor to forget that the month names were from galus Bavel, and not related
to the Hebrew word "mar".
But in general, folk etymologies too have causitive power. (It's just
that in my last example, I think we need to resist it.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:09:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students
On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 02:35:38AM -0400, Rn Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
: Well yeah, that's a frequently given piece of theodicy. A world without
: Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would be no moral agents
: for good to happen to. And thus no real good in the universe at all.
:
: But it only explains the evil people do. Not congenital birth defects
: and other such natural evils.
: I think these are two different categories -- "evil" and "suffering."
Yes, but fixing my misspeech doesn't change my point. To apply the
correction:
Well yeah, that's a frequently given piece of theodicy. A world without
Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would be no moral agents
for good to happen to. And thus no real good in the universe at all.
But it only explains suffering that is caused by the evil people do. Not
congenital birth defects and other such naturally caused suffering.
: none that are fully satisfying to us. Ultimately we just have to accept that
: we are limited creatures and can never fully fathom His mind.
Does that necessarily mean we cannot know His Goals either, or only how
they play out in practice? IOW, perhaps we can conclude that HYashem
wants a world of hatavah, including being meitiv us with the joy of being
able to be meitivim ourselves, without knowing why that means He would
choose providing Tov in one case and why He left us on our own in another.
: The second category, what you call "natural evils," really should not be
: called evil at all...
True, but if we correct my language, then the question too needs correction:
How is the existence of *suffering* consistent with the Existence of an
Omniscient Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent G-d?
: which apply to different situations. Atonement for sin and purification of
: the soul are just two reasons but there are many others we can think of, as
: well as Divine reasons we can't think of.
Including free will. For all I know, Hashem lets certain diseases foster
because He Wants to give us the opportunity to cure them. That does not
address His Choice of victims, though.
I suggested four answers to theodicy, keneged arba banim:
The chakham doesn't really answer it, he instead asks "How does Hashem
want me to respond?"
The rasha gets yisurim as punishment. In the Haggadah we tell him that its
not the tragedy that is leading him to rejecting G-d its his rejection of
G-d that led him to the tragedy.
The tam gets yisurim shel ahavah. He didn't do anything wrong, but he is
shaken out of the rut that keeps him from trying to be a chakham.
And the she'eino yodea' lish'ol gets the life he does because, well,
there are times where the thing we want is a greater nisayon, than the
situation we find tragic. And if we are not up to the challenge, if its
a test that we couldn't pass, G-d doesn't make us face it.
I say it better and with more backing at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/pesach-5761-the-four-sons-confront-tragedy
But my point in my earlier post wasn't whether or not theodicy is answeable,
but that the issue of theodicy was simply ignored by the philosophy professor
giving the online course I pointed to.
Which, in turn, was why I thought that a translation of something R Sherky
said to university students (repeated from Twitter) requires more
examiunation of the original. To repeat (since I find this topic more
useful than trying to answer tzadiq vera lo):
: What should a student do when people ask him questions on emunah and
: he doesn't have an answer?
: RS: Teach your tongue to say "I don't know". That's fine. Afterwards
: he needs to search for the answer.
: And if he has questions about which he can't find an answer?
: RS: Then he should be a kofer, the Rav answered simply. If a student
: concludes that the Torah isn't true, why should he remain a
: believer?
"Can't find"? This professor of philosophy missed a huge theological
topic. My guess is that "lo nimtza" was translated overly literally
and RYS was replying to questioned for which no answer exists.
And yes, someone should be intellectually honest enough to give up
his religion if it really were disproven. An impossible hypothetical
(we know a Torah-follower's religion won't ever really be disproven,
beyond minor misunderstood peratim); so not very meaningful, but not
something it would shock me to hear a rav say.
: Today my Creator gave me a toothache and a painful flare-up of arthritis.
: But He also gave me fresh air to breathe, bright red flowers in my garden,
: a beautiful blue sky, food, water, shelter and clothing, a dentist, Advil,
: and also wine, coffee and chocolate. I did not want to question whether I
: really deserved the chocolate, the coffee and the flowers so I refrained
: from asking whether I deserved the toothache and the arthritis, although I
: did ask Him to take them away.
I said something similar recently about "lir'os es atzmo ke'ilu
hu yatza miMitzrayim" <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/you-too-left-mitzrayim>.
I wrote about how the RBSO put into process even before I was born
events that caused my lymphoma to be diagnosed while still in stage
1, BH and ba"h. A rare form of lymphoma that (as of 2010) had only
afflicted two other people, both rescue workers who helped look
for their comrade's remains in the weeks after 9/11. Here's just
the post-script:
To be intellectually honest: The story loses some of its impact if you
think about Office Ryan and Firefighter Endicott's families, who lost
their love ones specifically because they were determined to give other
rescue workers' families the closure of being able to make a funeral.
On 9/11 itself, for every story retold of someone who was spared being
there because they were out doing some mitzvah is a story of someone
who seems no less deserving who was killed in the attack.
Every life has its own story.
I cannot know G-d's calculus in my own, never mind in others'.
But the mystery of tzadiq vera lo (why the righteous suffer) doesn't
free me from feeling grateful for the good in my life (hakaras hatov)
and feeling thankful to the ones -- or in this case the One -- who
provide it (hoda'ah).
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:14:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 05:28:43PM +0300, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
: Regarding this minhag (which I inherited from my father z"l, and which
: had as a corollary eating virtually no bought products...
: I believe we can rest assured that RCB had no doubts about the degree
: of the CC's observance of Pesach kashrus. It was just a taken-for-granted
: practice that one did not eat out on Pesach, unless there was no
: alternative.
Which is the only way the minhag could be non-offensive.
I am reminded of the rav who establishes a policy not to eat in any
mispallel's home, so that no one is offended by their rabbi having to
judge their home's kashrus as insufficient.
Still, I think it would be elegant if people who have the minhag of
misht zikh nisht adopt the minhag of Maimouna. We might not be able to
eat together on Pesach, but let's all share the simchas Isru Chag!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:08:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 09:46:56PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: I heard him say several times that Judaism does not believe in the law
: of the excluded middle.
: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle
However, not only does RYBS's discussion of bein hashemashos really rely
on defying the law of contradiction by saying "both" rather than the
excluded middle's "something in between", so does his invocation of
"almanas isa" and "isa lashon safeiq hu" -- safeiq is a dough.
For that matter, the same could be said of erev (although RYBS didn't)
-- an irbuvia of day and night.
So I think that RYBS actually meant that halakhah had no law of
contradiction. Which may be a consequence of allowing middle values
between yes and no, I haven't found it spelled out anywhere.
BTW, the notion that a tenai needs to be said in both positive and
negative is also relevant, as only saying "I promise to do X if Y"
is insufficient if Y could be both true and false or somewhere between
true and false -- in those cases, whether or not I commit to doing X is
ambiguous. Eg "I promise to do X if the next person to enter the room
is tall" would lead to a she'eilah if the person walking in is a 5'11"
American man (where Google the average is 5'10"). "Tall" is a non-boolean
predicate -- a person could be somewhat tall, and not just because it's
a matter of opinion, but between there is a gray area about the bottom
of the set.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 8
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 01:19:27 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts Fantasy Requires no Hatarah
I am seeking the facts that the Teshuvah employs to support a Halachic
ruling that Gebrochts is Assur.
so who will tell me if the Teshuvah actually enunciates that -
1] until a couple of decades beforehand kneading time was not included in
the kedei hilukh mil time
2] this reduced production time created a credible risk of flour remaining
in the baked Matzah?
I am nowhere near the lofty heights of the BaAl HaTanya. But I am
commanded, as is all of BNY, to learn and question and as R Ch Voloshiner
says [Paskens?] we are not permitted to accept a ruling or a Peshat if
there are questions that remain unanswered.
It seems that we are having a dispute about RMF arguing with a Minhag
endorsed by the SA HaRav. I propose that since Gebrochts is without
Halachic foundation, it does not require Hatarah. Others think this is
impossible since the SH HaRav endorses Gebrochts.
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:55:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts Fantasy Requires no Hatarah
On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 01:19:27AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: so who will tell me if the Teshuvah actually enunciates that -
Here's the teshuvah we've been discussing: SA haRav, back of Hilkhos
Pesach, tshuvah 6, pg 475-476
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25074&;pgnum=486>. (Same
as when we had this same conversation 3 years ago.)
Twenty years is mentioned on 476, the paragraph that beging "Ve'af" --
"...ad shemiqarov zeh esrim shanah o yotseir, nishpatah zehirus zu
beYisrael qedoshim, lemaheir me'od me'od belishah..."
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507 judgment bring balance and harmony?
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Message: 10
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 20:12:11 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating
A close friend told me that he his uncle (and family) would come to his
father's home for seder (in Poland before the war), bring his own food
and table cloth, and by doing this was considered to be meiqil.
Ben
On 5/3/2016 4:28 PM, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
> It was just a taken-for-granted practice that one did not eat out on
> Pesach, unless there was no alternative.
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Message: 11
From: Jonathan Traum
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:42:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] lion king
> Lisa Liel wrote:
>>> According to
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_lions it comes
>>> from the lion having been a symbol of kingship in the ancient world.
On 04/25/2016 03:58 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I presume RET is asking -- and if not, I am -- was Yaaqov avinu's
>> berakhah
>> of Yehudah the first association of lions with melukhah? Or did he draw
>> from some pre-existing part of the ancient world?
I can't say with any authority what was in Yaakov Avinu's thoughts
there, but lion imagery in the ancient world certainly does seem to
predate him.
On 04/25/2016 09:22 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> ...
> But all this is about using lions as a symbol of royalty. RET's
> question was not about that but about the idea that lions themselves
> are kings, and that seems to come from a Xian source.
>
The wikipedia article references Hagigah 13b, which says "???? ?? ???
?????? ???" or in the Soncino translation: "For a Master said: The
king of the wild animals is the lion..."
Jonathan Traum
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Message: 12
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 21:12:13 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] chumrah and kulah
In a recent shiur Rav Michael Avraham has attacked several chumrot on the
grounds that one is frequently a chumra on one side is a kula on the other.
Some examples (mine not necessarily from RMA)
1) in out recent discussion of kitniyot. In many cases one can be
machmir about the various questions we have raised and live without
kitniyot for a few days. However, in other cases it may take away from
simchat yomtov especially when it prevents families (or friends) from
joining together for a meal
2) RSZA always took simchat shabbat/yomtov into account in his
piskei halacha. A rabbi who is machmir not to allow using a shabbat
elevator may be forcing someone who lives on the 30th floor to spend every
shabbat without a minyan and without any company and certainly without oneh
shabbat. RSZA was an advocate of tzomet because he felt it important to
help especially the disadvantaged. Thus, he felt it important to invent a
wheelchair good for invalids that can be used on shabbat
3) I had a discussion with a rabbi recently about civil marriages. He felt
that in many cases one should be machmir to require a get. I pointed out
that a consequence of such a chumra is to declare many people mamzerim when
they are products of a second civil marriage without a get. This affects
many old Russian familes and also the question of Jewishness of anusim etc.
4) Several Bnei Brak poskim were machmir in not accepting DNA for most
halachot (siman benoni) even in cases where the scientific evidence is
overwhelming. RMA pointed out that not accepting DNA for paternity might be
depriving a son from his rightful inheritance. Everyone agrees that in
monetary matters there is no chumra/kulah. However RMA points out that this
is true even in many yoreh deah questions as inheritance rights. Releasing
an agunah from her chains is also important even when it relies on DNA
evidence.
This is just a sampling of many areas where some poskim try and be
conservative while RMA insists that just blindly doing the old thing is not
necessarily the conservative or macmir way.
His favorite analogy is a group of people who live in the tropics and wear
swimwear. Because of circumstances they move to a colder area. There now
arises a dispute should they continue to wear swimwear because thats what
their ancestors wore or do they change to warmer clothing. The change is
also meant to be conservative: the ancestors wore clothing that matched the
climate and so they should wear clothing that match the clothing. The
reformists change clothing simply because they dont care what the ancestors
wore
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:15:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] lion king
On 05/03/2016 12:42 PM, Jonathan Traum via Avodah wrote:
> On 04/25/2016 09:22 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> >But all this is about using lions as a symbol of royalty. RET's
>> >question was not about that but about the idea that lions themselves
>> >are kings, and that seems to come from a Xian source.
> The wikipedia article references Hagigah 13b, which says "???? ?? ???
> ?????? ???" or in the Soncino translation: "For a Master said: The
> king of the wild animals is the lion..."
Yes, it does now. As the result of this discussion.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God.
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Message: 14
From: Chana Luntz
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:45:19 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kitniyot
RET wrote
> 1) A number of RZ rabbis still look for chumrot on kitniyot. I already
> mentioned kashering pots used with kitniyot and I just saw an article
> by a respected RY not allowing any kitniyot at all this coming shabbat
> which is not Pesach in Israel
And RBW replied:
>RET sent me the article on the subject. The author forbid cooking kitniyot
and dried fruit (he doesn't actually address eating something like store
bought chummous although some of the reasons he gives (see
>below) may apply).
>The author gave three reasons for forbidding cooking kitniyot on Erev
>Shabbat:
>1) Since the minhag of not eating kitniyot is rooted in the psak of the
rishonim, we don't say "ho'il" (since a sefardi may drop in, you can cook
for yourself).
>2) Since these products are forbidden, they're muktza
>3) Handling them may bring you to eat them.
>Regarding one: Like I quoted, there are poskim who do allow cooking because
of ho'il. But I found reasons 2 and 3 harder to understand.
>Re #2: Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata rules that treif meat isn't muktza on
Shabbat because you can give it to goy. At first I thought that was only in
a case where you are likely to give it to a goy, but he also rules that
challa tahora is not muktza (when tahara is >practiced). So what is the
difference in this case?
>Re #3: Really? Is it assur to hande food, period, on a fast day?
Of course, this is just a reiteration of the discussion we had last year -
here is my post. http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n069.shtml#10
The positions cited here appear to be taken directly from the Rav Poelim.
See the citation there regarding the issur of handling food on fast days.
>Ben
Regards
Chana
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Message: 15
From: elazar teitz
Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:26:09 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kitniyos
RBen Waxman cited the following:
"This morning the local rosh yeshiva (Rav Tawil) also
discussed eating chameitz. If a non-Jew were to offer you some chameitz,
it is fine. If you sold bread/chameitz before chag, RT basically said
that one can rely on Rav Ovadia's opinion that the bread would not be
muqtza on Shabbat and therefore it would be permitted to eat, if you
can deal with the Pesach keilim issue."
Whether or not the bread is muktza, it certainly was not yet
repurchased from the non-Jew who bought it on erev Pesach; and thus, even
if there are no Orach Chaim questions about eating it, it would seem that
there is still a Choshen Mishpat problem.
EMT
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