Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 46

Mon, 02 May 2016

• 1. Matzik l'rabim (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Fwd: RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Parlez Vous Old French? (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Fwd: RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts (Micha Berger)
• 5. kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating Out on Pesach (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: cooking kitniyot in a peasdik pot (Simon Montagu)
• 8. Re: RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts (Isaac Balbin)
• 9. Re: Fwd: RMF Mattir Neder Gebrochts (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Re: kitniyot (Zev Sero)

Rav Asher Weiss discusses a case in which a small number of graves are 
found in a place that is not designated to be a beit qevarot. This piece 
of land is slated for a large construction project, which would in all 
likelihood mean damaging the graves. He discusses various reasons for 
moving (or not moving) the graves. One of the ideas that he brings up is 
"matziq et harabim" (damage to the public).  He concludes that this 
reason wouldn't apply here; the claim "matziq et harabim" can be used to 
permit moving graves only if the graves cause teumah to kohenim.

Why would forcing kohenim to take a different path (possibly a very 
small detour) be sufficient reason to move graves but a major building 
project not?

PS: For a variety of other reasons, RAW permitted moving the graves.

Ben

in response to David Riceman's suggestion -  extra-halachic behaviour is
likely to require Hatarah whilst those that have a Halachic foundation
require a Pesak

consider this:

if there is no Halachic foundation for a Minhag then it will never require
Hatarah, it is an error. The custom to sniff snuff in Shule on Shabbos can
never gain status of a Minhag that requires Hatarah

if there is some Halachic foundation then notwithstanding it not being
recognised as binding Halacha, if it is adopted as a custom it may well
require Hatarah if one wishes to abandon the custom

Therefore since we have yet to see any practical/Halachic foundation of
there being a risk that wet Matzos may become Chamets, the Minhag of
Gebrochts is no different to the Paroches being blue or maroon and
suggesting that it may not be black or bright red or pink [the illustration
given by R H Schachter responding to the suggestion that there is in force
a Minhag not to eat these days soft Matza during Pesach]
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I have a question about an Old French word that appears in a Rashi. I hope
that someone on the list is fairly fluent in French, or has access to such
a person. But first, an introduction...

It is not unusual for an English-speaker to refer to Rosh Hashana as the
"New Year", or to Yom Kippur as the "Day of Atonement". These are
legitimate translations, and it is clear to me that they are used in
certain circles. In contrast, the name of Chanuka is generally not
translated; it is transliterated or adapted into English as Chanukkah or
Hanuka or something similar, but translations like "Festival of Dedication"
(and "Festival of Lights", which isn't really a translation at all) are
much rarer.

But this post is not about those holidays; it is about the one we just
completed. I have long thought that the English language was unique, in
that we have a translation for the name Pesach, namely "Passover". I
concede that although we might perceive of "Passover" as a basic word of
simple English, it was actually coined by William Tyndale in the early
1500s, for the specific purpose of translating the root "pesach" (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible#Legacy). Be that as it may, it
*IS* an easily-understood term for any English-speaker, most especially in
the contexts of Shmos 12:11-13: "They will eat the Passover offering... and
I will pass over them..." and Shmos 12:27: ?It is the Passover offering, to
G-d Who passed over the homes of the Israelites in Egypt..."

I had long thought that English-speakers are uniquely fortunate to have
grown up with this concept as a part of our language. According to my
research, Pesach is called "Pascua" in Spanish, "P?que" in French, and
"Passah" in German. To my ear, all of these seem to be transliterations and
adaptations, much more like Hanuka than Passover. In my imagination, I
always saw a seder in Paris, and when they got to Rabban Gamliel's Three
Things, the leader had to go on an etymological sidetrack, while his
brother in London kept the focus on the experiential story.

But last week I saw Rashi at the very end of Shemos 12:11. After explaining
the verb p-s-ch to mean skipping and jumping, he writes (as translated and
explained by Rabbi Yisrael Isser Tzvi Herczeg, in ArtScroll's Rashi on
Shemos): "And also [the Old French term for Passover,] *Pasche*, is an
expression of stepping."

A footnote in that edition tells us that this "appears to have been
inserted into the text of Rashi by someone other than Rashi himself", but
that is utterly irrelevant, because no rabbinic authority is needed for the
question I am asking. I could ask my question to any ordinary Jacques: How
do the French refer to Pesach in their language, now and/or 900 years ago?
And is that word more of a translation, or more of a transliteration?

Akiva Miller
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On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:24:32PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: suggesting that it may not be black or bright red or pink [the illustration
: given by R H Schachter responding to the suggestion that there is in force
: a Minhag not to eat these days soft Matza during Pesach]

Except that RHS explicitly told me that an Ashkenazi could eat soft matza
on Pesach. He just warned about the pragmatics of it being harder for
me to know which Sepharadi posqim are capable of providing a reliable
hekhsher. A position confirmed by other list members.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 4/27/2016 7:09 PM, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:
> I don't know on what basis the digests say that you need separate kelim
> for kitniyos.   The taam of kitniyos that is absorbed into the pot in
> which it was cooked is automatically batel.  I think it's just recommended
> for a heker, so you'll remember not to eat kitniyos yourself, and not
> really necessary at all.

> And if you know before Pesach that you're going to cook kitniyos for
> next Shabbos, you'll leave it out of the chometz cupboard. 


I read various guides about this Shabbat. To sum up the issues involved:

1) Pots: Yes there are various opinions and customs on whether or
not one needs separate pots. One guide said that while it is true
that kitniyot are batel b'rov, still one shouldn't batel an issur
litchatchila. Therefore, he recommended that if one wants to cook rice
for Shabbat, don't cook anything else after using that pot.

2) Does the eiruv tavshilin cover cooking kitniyot? Since you would be
cooking the rice/beans when they are assur to you, maybe teh ET doesn't
cover it. However according to Rav Shlomo Zalman, if one lives in a
place in which there are Sefardim, the theoretical possibility that a
Sefardi person would stop over is enough.

3) Checking the kitniyot: One has to check the kitniyot for chameitz. I
personally bought Kitov rice that had been checked twice and only a third
check was required. Why they didn't check it a third time, I don't know.

4) Anything cold (eg chummus) isn't a problem at all.

5) Addendum: This morning the local rosh yeshiva (Rav Tawil) also
discussed eating chameitz. If a non-Jew were to offer you some chameitz,
it is fine. If you sold bread/chameitz before chag, RT basically said
that one can rely on Rav Ovadia's opinion that the bread would not be
muqtza on Shabbat and therefore it would be permitted to eat, if you
can deal with the Pesach keilim issues.

On Areivim, in the thread "kitniyot", R' Ben Waxman wrote:

> It doesn't make sense to me that the only holiday in which
> the Torah mentions eating with one's neighbor has become so
> divisive that people would consider not eating with family.

My guess is that "the Torah mentions eating with one's neighbor" is a
reference to how the Korban Pesach must be eaten.

I certainly can't argue with that, but there is much more to this story.
The Pesach 5776 issue of YU's "Torah To-Go" has an article titled "
Understanding an Unfriendly Minhag: Not Eating Out on Pesach" (the url is
too long; just google the title and you'll find it) by Rabbi Yona Reiss,
who writes:

> The late Belzer Rebbe (Rav Aharon Rokeach zt"l) brings a
> different source for the custom of not eating in others'
> homes on Pesach, noting that only with respect to Shavuot
> and Sukkot does the Torah mention the notion of rejoicing
> together with others (Devorim 16:11, 16:14), but not with
> respect to Pesach. Therefore the scriptural implication
> is that on Pesach there may be a basis for parties to
> refrain from joining each other for their meals.

BTW: I have cited this article only because it answers (to some degree) a
question that was raised by RBW. Lest anyone think that I actively endorse
this practice of not eating out on Pesach, let me say this: Rabbi Reiss'
article brought many sources to show that this practice is a legitimate
minhag, not to be disparaged; but I did not see any suggestion of why
someone would want to act this way, or any explanation of how this practice
got started. This is especially so in situations where the kashrus
standards of the would-be host are at least as high as those of the
would-be guest. To twist the title of the article, Rabbi Reiss may have
legitimized this unfriendly minhag, but I still do not understand it.

Akiva Miller
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On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah <
>> He cites *five* sources on this, but unfortunately, I cannot decipher any
>> of the rashei teivos (which is par for the course, with me and the Kaf
>> Hachayim).

> What if I told you the Kaf Hachayim has an key to rashei teivot at the
> beginning of the first volume?
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't help much with ZR', which he already gives two
> possibilities for, Zera Avraham and Zera Emet, and I've no idea which Zera
> Avraham, but PRH is the Pri Hadash, MHRLNH is R. Levi Ibn Habib, and `RH is
> the Erech Hashulhan. That's as far as I can go before Hag!


Hazon Ovadiah on the Haggada (note 8 on page 55 of the 5739 edition) brings
some of the same sources, without so many rashei teivot:

Shu"t Zera Emet helek 3 (helek Orah Hayyim siman 48)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=742&;st=&pgnum=122
Hukkat Hapesah siman 453
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7855&;st=&pgnum=172

But as far as I can tell none of the sources are directly addressing the
question of an Ashkenazi cooking kitniot in his own house, as opposed to
being invited to a Sephardi.

`On the matter of Gebrochts, R?MG Rabi wrote in Issue 43

> Is it inconceivable that Reb Moshe arranged being Mattir the Neder just to
> make the guest feel good? When in fact he really considered that it was not
> a Minhag at all and does not require Hatarah.
> 
> RMF called over 2 guys in the yeshiva and had my friend "matir neder" on
> the spot and said now you can eat Gebrochts and you may eat at my seder.
> 

and in Issue 44

> May we assert that no matter the number of participants who follow a
> custom, the numbers do not make a binding Minhag that requires Hatarah -
> as R H Schachter wrote about eating hard Matza.
> 
> May I venture that a Posek who suggests that it does require [or will not
> permit] Hatarah is also only protecting broader issues or being polite. A
> Posek's opinion is therefore no better than the position taken by Reb
> Moshe. What we require is that the matter have some Halachic foundation.
> But we have yet to see any practical/Halachic foundation that there is
> a risk that Matzos may become Chamets if they become wet.

Mori V?Rabbi R? Hershel Schachter advised me as follows: (emphasis is mine)

"what I said was that there never was a minhag for Ashkenazim not to eat
soft matzot.  The Ramah quotes the minhag that the matzos should be thinner
than an etzba ...the soft matzos are thinner just like what color you have
on the poroches is not a minhag, it is a matter of taste.  Not every little
sneeze is considered a minhag.	However, if a person descends from
chassidishe families and they have a minhag not to eat gebrokts *unless
someone should pasken for him that this is a minhag shtus or a minhag
b'taus, it would not even help to make a Hatoras nidorim*.  Hatoras nidorim
for a minhag only works if it is a *personal* minhag.  The baal ha'neder
has to request from the beis din the ha'tora.  *If an entire community has
a minhag, you have to get the entire kehilla to be matir the neder.  One
member of the community cannot be matir the neder on his own*.	Just like
if a person decides that he does not want to wait six hours between milchig
and fleishig, he cannot be matir t
 he neder, *he* is not the baal ha'neder.  I was told that R.Tuvia
 Goldstein used to say that the whole minhag against eating gebrokts only
 made sense years ago when the matzohs were much thicker.  The concept of
 dovor sh'bminyan, etc. that even if one lives in a generation when the
 reason for the takanah no longer applies, the takanah is still binding,
 only applied to takonos d'rabbonon and *does not apply to minhogim*.  The
 Ramah in his teshuvos writes like this and rashi in the first perek in
 Beitza writes the same.  If I am not mistaken, I think the very last
 teshuva in Achiezer volume 3 by r. chaim ozer writes the same.?

I conclude that we should be much more careful before attempting to extrapolate from Poskim of the enormous stature of Mori V?Rabbi.

Dr. Isaac Balbin
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no idea why this is relevant to this discussion


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:24:32PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah
> wrote:
> : suggesting that it may not be black or bright red or pink [the
> illustration
> : given by R H Schachter responding to the suggestion that there is in
> force
> : a Minhag not to eat these days soft Matza during Pesach]
>
> Except that RHS explicitly told me that an Ashkenazi could eat soft matza
> on Pesach. He just warned about the pragmatics of it being harder for
> me to know which Sepharadi posqim are capable of providing a reliable
> hekhsher. A position confirmed by other list members.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
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On 05/01/2016 02:13 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
>
> 1) Pots: Yes there are various opinions and customs on whether or
> not one needs separate pots. One guide said that while it is true
> that kitniyot are batel b'rov, still one shouldn't batel an issur
> litchatchila. Therefore, he recommended that if one wants to cook rice
> for Shabbat, don't cook anything else after using that pot.

I don't understand how bitul lechatchila applies here.  When you're
cooking the kitniyos you are not deliberately being mevatel its taste
in the walls of the pot -- that happens automatically.   And after the
kitniyos were cooked in it the issur is automatically batel; the taam
of kitniyos in the walls is surely less than 50%!



-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".


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