Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 41

Mon, 18 Apr 2016

• 1. Ta'am kitniyos (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Ta'am kitniyos (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Can't taste the bitterness (David Wacholder)
• 4. Re: minag avos (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Can't taste the bitterness (Zev Sero)
• 6. Fitbit (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Fitbit (Shui Haber)
• 8. Re: Fitbit (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Hagada's response to the rasha (Akiva Miller)

Mishne Berurah 453:7 writes that if a choleh - even a choleh she'AYN bo
sakanah - needs kitniyos on Pesach, one may cook it for him. I was struck
by how casually he said this (even opening with the remark that this
halacha is "pashut - simple"), yet he said nothing about the keilim
involved.

I will concede that this was a literally parenthetical (or rather,
bracketed) comment, and perhaps we should not darshen too much into it. But
on the other hand, he had the option of saying that a choleh may *eat*
kitnyos himself, and insted he took the extra step of saying that *we* may
do the cooking. And yet, the Chofetz Chaim omitted the warning which is so
ubiquitous today, that the cooking should be done in separate pots, not to
be eaten from by healthy Ashkenazim.

So here is my question: Where, and from whom, do we first hear that
Ashkenazim don't only avoid eating kitniyos be'en, but that we even avoid
ingesting *ta'am* kitniyos.

(Plenty of poskim talk about ta'aroves kitniyos, but that's usually an
after-the-fact situation, and I don't want to get bogged down on whether or
not the situations are similar. I'd rather hear about those who explicitly
address the keilim issue.)

Akiva Miller
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On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 09:51:04PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: So here is my question: Where, and from whom, do we first hear that
: Ashkenazim don't only avoid eating kitniyos be'en, but that we even avoid
: ingesting *ta'am* kitniyos.

RMF explains that one may drink whisky (51 weeks a year) aged in wine
casks because we do not prohibit ta'am stam yeinam. The core of his
argument is that stam yeinam is batel in only 1:6 (YD 134:5). One can
taste the wine in a mixture of one part wine to 6 parts water. (IM YD
1:62)

Well, qitniyos is batel berov. (Rama OC 453:1, see MB ad loc that explains
the Rama must mean where the qitniyos is a mi'ut, and is not permitting
every mixture.)



Bringing me to the need to switch the formula for KLP Coca Cola. Corn
is a late edition to qitniyos, as it is a New World plant.

Corn syrup adds the issue of mei qitniyos.

A 12 oz can of coke has 140 Cal (Pepsi: 150). High fructose corn syrup
is 4 Cal/gm, so that 12 fluid oz can cannot contain more than 35 gm =
1-1/4 oz (weight) mei qitniyos. Less than 10%, never mind rov.

So, the problem with standard American Coke is mei iffy-qitniyos that
is batul.

And yet it's avoided on Pesach?

(According to
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/coca-cola-taste-test_n_13
24282.html>
80% of tasters prefer Mexican Coke, which -- like KLP Coke -- only
differs by the use of sugar rather than HFCS. So I hope no one from
Coke is actually reading this post.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

   1. R' Micha pointed out the Yerushalmi  discussion whether Chassa metuka
   sweet lettuce is kosher. That shows that the name - Chazeret Chasa -
   synonymous with Marror is sufficient, and bitter taste is not necessary.
   2.  R' Chaim Kanievsky points out that the Chazon Ish - Orach Chaim page
   398 in Otzar Hachochma - strongly rejects that conclusion from the
   Yerushalmi! (hat tip to R' Kalman Gutman!)
   3. After 6 lines pointing out how vital the taste of Maror is, CI shows
   the absurds of such a conclusion -  if so you can leave the Maror in
   Chazeres, and need not taste it at all - swallow in a sieve - and since any
   vegetable which is bitter is sufficient to be Yotzei, we see that the
   bitter taste is the governing principle.
   4.
   5. CI concludes with Chacham Tzvi #119 that one must wait until your
   lettuce is bitter, but only mildly bitter, not totally beyond edible.
   6. Thus we should pursue bitter lettuce. The paradox is that the lettuce
   industry spends all its resources to prevent "bolting" - becoming bitter.
   The economy runs on sweet lettuce, as CI also pointed out. Pesach is in
   spring, so it is not so simple.
   7. That would be the practical problem the Yerushalmi is attacking. You
   do not need the strongest bitterness, mild transitional bitterness
   sufficient.
   8. The super-kosher bug-free industry now markets "greenhouse" kale and
   arugula, which are mildly bitter. I purchased both last night. Usually they
   are used by French chefs.

This is a classic Chazon Ish. He wanted Torah based lifestyle, and Mehadrin
bitterness in Maror fits right in with his theme. Build on the sound simple
meaning of the Torah.

-- 
David Wacholder

Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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Or if you want, I am equally reviving the threads "Minhag Avos and Minhag haMakom"
(see the group of threads at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=M#MINHAG%20AVOS>)
"Minhagim for Baalei Teshuva"
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=M#MIN
HAGIM%20FOR%20BAALEI%20TESHUVA>
"Paradigm Changes in Halacha"
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=P#PAR
ADIGM%20CHANGES%20IN%20HALACHA>
or the quite timely "obsession with kitniyot"
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=O#OBSESSION
%20WITH%20KITNIYOT>

In AhS this week, I found I was not alone in concluding from Maqom
sheNahagu (Pesachim ch.4, cases in both TB and RY) that there is a
general rule binding one (of a community) to maintain minhag avos.
(At least when there is no conflicting single minhag hamaqom.)

The AhS (YD 119:42, closing paranthetic) cites the minhag of Benei Baishan
(Pesachim 50b) not to travel from Tzur to Tzidon on erev Shabbos. His case
is a visitor who is keeping he minhagim of his host community. The Shakh
and Maharal Chaviv say that if everyone else is eatting something that by
his minhag is prohibited -- not as local pesaq, but as actual minhag --
he may eat it with them. The AhS leaves it with a tzarikh iyun gadol,
because visiting a place should not allow their minhagim to override
minhag avos.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam

On 04/15/2016 10:49 AM, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
> 5.  CI concludes with Chacham Tzvi #119 that one must wait until your
> lettuce is bitter, but only mildly bitter, not totally beyond
> edible.

This is not true.  The ChTz says no such thing.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

I was at the recent torah u mada conference in bar Ilan.  I asked both
Rabbi dr fixler and rosen about using the fitbit on shabbat.  Both of them
are important experts in halacha and modern technology
Both answered that there is no technical problem nevertheless they felt it
was zilzul shabbat unless there was a medical need  t fixler said he heard
the same psak from t ariel chief rabbi of ramat gan
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 1:02 PM Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> I was at the recent torah u mada conference in bar Ilan.  I asked both
> Rabbi dr fixler and rosen about using the fitbit on shabbat....
> Both answered that there is no technical problem nevertheless they felt it
> was zilzul shabbat unless there was a medical need  r fixler said he heard
> the same psak from r ariel chief rabbi of ramat gan

Why is it not mesaken mane?

[Transliteration mine. -micha]

-- 

Shui Haber

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Shui Haber <shuiha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is it not mesaken mane?

[transliteration still mine -micha]

They hold that anything that cannot be seen or felt is nor metaken-maneh
or any other melacha.
Of course if one pushes buttons or has a model in which the results are
shown immediately on the watch then it would be forbidden.
The assumption is that nothing on the watch indicates that it is
recording.

Rosen indicated to me that he has written all this but I do not at
present have his teshuva.
The general approach of tzomet is that (almost) all their products
are meant for special individuals etc, sick, police, doctors etc when
needed. Though they don't manufacturer a smart watch the same principles
hold.

-- 
Eli Turkel

The Hagada's section about the rasha can be divided into four sections:

(1) what the rasha says/asks: Mah haavoda hazos lachem
(2) a perush on what he really means: lachem v'lo lo, kafar b'ikar
(3) the proper response: hak'heh es shinav, baavur zeh
(4) a perush on the response: he would not have been saved

(I am deliberately not translating "hak'heh", as it would distract us from
my question.)

My question is about the third of these. If the hagada would simply have
said, "Hak'heh his teeth, and tell him, Baavur zeh...", that would fit ALL
the various translations and explanations that I can remember.

But the hagada seems to say more. It does not merely tell what the proper
response should be, but it also seems to direct that response to specific
responder(s). I am referring to the hagada's words, "v'af atah".

What is being added by these words "v'af atah". "And even you should
hak'heh his teeth". There seems to be some sort of logical argument being
made, that there is someone else who would *obviously* hak'heh his teeth,
but no, even you! You must do it too!

Am I totally off track? Anyone see my question? Does anyone have a
translation or perush that doesn't ignore the word "af"?

Akiva Miller
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